Quote: Originally Posted By swamphawk22 on 7/11/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By iain on 7/09/2009

I'll concede that, swamp, as I can't be bothered to look either up.

I'm going to counter with: User Error.

Does Hot Stove have a proper distribution of fielding ratings?

The SIM is designed to mirror MLB, but with the caveat that owners respect the recommended fielding ratings for all positions.

You play Derek Jeter's bat, you get Derek Jeter's glove. Most HBD owners are fine with that (and I'm not saying that's a poor decision - just that it's a user decision, with consequences), but you have to accept that you're going to get substandard fielding stats from your SS.

My other point is that a SS with below standard ratings plays worse than a MLB SS should. I played Yorvit Moreno (70-88-79-74) at SS about 75 games last year, he made 20 errors! I realize Moreno is below standards but that would come out to about 44 errors. That is way above anyone in baseball.

Either raise the standards or modify the engine.



I'm guessing Mark Texiera would make about 44 errors at SS.

Of course, no MLB manager would play him at SS.

A lot of HBD managers would if they had Albert Pujols on first.

Quote: Originally Posted By pstrnutbag44 on 7/11/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By swamphawk22 on 7/11/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By pstrnutbag44 on 7/09/2009
Again, swamp, Hot Stove league is not the best example. It was a league that had to be "restored" at one point. Try using a league with more realistic stats like Major Leagues (have you checked there yet? Plenty of quality defensive SS at every level), Moonlight Graham, etc. that has always maintained a dedicated core group of owners. Anyone can cherry pick a single league and make their case for either side, really. Pick one that stands out as having stats the are the closest to mirroring real-life stats all around. Or, better yet, pick a few and average out your findings.

I did look over some other leagues and some where better.

Hometown=30 rated SS

Eckersly=30 rated SS

Major league="28" Rated SS (as per your request)

This includes all minors and people that are in no way major league hitters. This is still less than 1 per team, with no back ups.

If any of those players are under 27, you won't see what they project too. So, checking the minors helps as far as veterans go, but not as far as any player under age 27 goes. Keep that in mind when checking out ratings for anything in other worlds

Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 7/11/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By swamphawk22 on 7/11/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By iain on 7/09/2009

I'll concede that, swamp, as I can't be bothered to look either up.

I'm going to counter with: User Error.

Does Hot Stove have a proper distribution of fielding ratings?

The SIM is designed to mirror MLB, but with the caveat that owners respect the recommended fielding ratings for all positions.

You play Derek Jeter's bat, you get Derek Jeter's glove. Most HBD owners are fine with that (and I'm not saying that's a poor decision - just that it's a user decision, with consequences), but you have to accept that you're going to get substandard fielding stats from your SS.

My other point is that a SS with below standard ratings plays worse than a MLB SS should. I played Yorvit Moreno (70-88-79-74) at SS about 75 games last year, he made 20 errors! I realize Moreno is below standards but that would come out to about 44 errors. That is way above anyone in baseball.

Either raise the standards or modify the engine.




I'm guessing Mark Texiera would make about 44 errors at SS.

Of course, no MLB manager would play him at SS.

A lot of HBD managers would if they had Albert Pujols on first.

Quote: Originally Posted By gman981981 on 7/11/2009Marco Scutaro

Quote: Originally Posted By swamphawk22 on 7/11/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 7/11/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By swamphawk22 on 7/11/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By iain on 7/09/2009

I'll concede that, swamp, as I can't be bothered to look either up.

I'm going to counter with: User Error.

Does Hot Stove have a proper distribution of fielding ratings?

The SIM is designed to mirror MLB, but with the caveat that owners respect the recommended fielding ratings for all positions.

You play Derek Jeter's bat, you get Derek Jeter's glove. Most HBD owners are fine with that (and I'm not saying that's a poor decision - just that it's a user decision, with consequences), but you have to accept that you're going to get substandard fielding stats from your SS.

My other point is that a SS with below standard ratings plays worse than a MLB SS should. I played Yorvit Moreno (70-88-79-74) at SS about 75 games last year, he made 20 errors! I realize Moreno is below standards but that would come out to about 44 errors. That is way above anyone in baseball.

Either raise the standards or modify the engine.




I'm guessing Mark Texiera would make about 44 errors at SS.

Of course, no MLB manager would play him at SS.

A lot of HBD managers would if they had Albert Pujols on first.

No they would not. they would play him in LF, RF, 3b or anywhere else.

HBD managers are not playing horrible guys at SS, they are playing below standard guys, and getting horrible results.



Then I suggest you play your 70-88-79-74 at one of those positiions. Because he damn sure has no business at SS. I know this, your results prove it.

Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 7/12/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By swamphawk22 on 7/11/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 7/11/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By swamphawk22 on 7/11/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By iain on 7/09/2009

I'll concede that, swamp, as I can't be bothered to look either up.

I'm going to counter with: User Error.

Does Hot Stove have a proper distribution of fielding ratings?

The SIM is designed to mirror MLB, but with the caveat that owners respect the recommended fielding ratings for all positions.

You play Derek Jeter's bat, you get Derek Jeter's glove. Most HBD owners are fine with that (and I'm not saying that's a poor decision - just that it's a user decision, with consequences), but you have to accept that you're going to get substandard fielding stats from your SS.

My other point is that a SS with below standard ratings plays worse than a MLB SS should. I played Yorvit Moreno (70-88-79-74) at SS about 75 games last year, he made 20 errors! I realize Moreno is below standards but that would come out to about 44 errors. That is way above anyone in baseball.

Either raise the standards or modify the engine.




I'm guessing Mark Texiera would make about 44 errors at SS.

Of course, no MLB manager would play him at SS.

A lot of HBD managers would if they had Albert Pujols on first.

No they would not. they would play him in LF, RF, 3b or anywhere else.

HBD managers are not playing horrible guys at SS, they are playing below standard guys, and getting horrible results.




Then I suggest you play your 70-88-79-74 at one of those positiions. Because he damn sure has no business at SS. I know this, your results prove it.

Quote: Originally posted by blanch13 on 7/05/2009The Jeter mythology persists. From a purely team-performance point of view, there's no doubt the Yankees should've moved Jeter to 3B, LF or 1B years ago. He's NEVER been even an average defensive SS, and for the last 4-5 years he's been among the worst in the majors. Of course, his offense has made up for some of that. ML teams consistently do a lot of things for reasons other than team performance, though.

Quote: Originally Posted By jdbkaput on 7/18/2009
It's rare to find even 20 players in a given league whose current ratings meet or exceed each of the four minimum criteria for SS rankings. There are plenty who can compensate for a low rating in one category or another, but it's apparent that there is a flaw in either the player creation logic or the way in which owners set up their drafts (that is, perhaps good glove, no bat players have gone unsigned for many seasons now). Whatever the case, there are far too few legitimate shortstops available in mature leagues.

Quote: Originally Posted By antonsirius on 7/18/2009When I joined Harold Reynolds last season I signed a minor league free agent to play shortstop. He can't hit, but he's got 90+ in all four SS ratings, and I wanted to emphasize defense so I made the sacrifice. Other teams choose to emphasize offense -- hell, the guy I have playing a Gold Glove third base would probably be a shortstop for someone else.

Shortstop is athletically the toughest position in baseball to play. The number of people capable of being average or better at both hitting and fielding is necessarily a limited pool. How many ML teams have guys who can play a decent (not even great) shortstop, and are also decent hitters?

The Giants don't have one.

The Padres don't have one.

The Indians don't have one.

The Orioles don't have one.

The Reds don't have one.

The Tigers don't have one.

The Royals, the Twins, the Astros, the Pirates, the Rangers, the Mariners... hell, the Dodgers don't even have one (since Furcal seems to have his bat in Atlanta.)

The Mets have Reyes, and are up sh!t creek when he gets hurt because they don't have anyone else. They're probably going to have to sign Boston's cast-off (Lugo) just to have someone who doesn't totally suck to plug in there while Reyes is out.

If you're expecting every team to have one or two guys who can be "league average shortstops", your expectations are ridiculous