Quote: Originally Posted By toddcommish on 10/14/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By jhawk14 on 10/14/2009
I don't see the big deal, draft 1250 and play..

I think some people have built an entire industry out of drafting low IP teams and fattening up against n00bs.

They will just need to come up with a new strategy rather than drafting the same types of teams to play in Safeco/Petco and collecting free seasons and gift certificates against n00bs.

Raise the minimum to 2000 IP and I'll still find a way to win vs HOF or noobs, that's not the point.

The point is, the minimums idea is to prevent owners who mess up leagues by intentionally underdrafting IP and PA to lose as big as possible and drain as much opponents stamina as possible in the process. That's all there is to it. Don't get me that, real teams have 1400 crap, please. WIS is great at simming sports but it will never come close to reality in many aspects because of the very nature of it's name What If..., that's why certain problems persists, such as the HR hitters vs deadball pitchers...

By raising the floor too high we'll only bump our heads on the ceiling... what I'm saying is, less room for strategies, meaning, leveling the field thus even more room for the "luck factor"...

with so many changes taking place with this update how can anyone say with certainty that "X will cause Y" when variables A, B, and C also have to be taken into account?

Additionally, you have all read Moneyball. And the better owners will figure out what is undervalued after the update, and will exploit it to their advantage, as they should. That's just being intelligent.

And the next tier of owners will look and see who is being successful and why, and will see what principles they are using and adopt those.

And then there will be the cookie crew.

And then there will be those who continue to draft Joe Morgan.

Let me make some arguments in favor of the 1250 IP minimum..

- This only affects open leagues and champions leagues. If you find that you can't tolerate the minimum IP, you can always play in a theme league.

- The minimum is only too low if you insist on using a semi-fatigue strategy composed of low bb, low k pitchers and play in an extreme pitching park. ie: Only if you are using two loop holes in the sim to get more innings than you actually paid for.

- Both of the loopholes mentioned above are in the works to get closed. Basically, the fact that you can get more IP out of low bb, low K pitchers, and the fact that you can severely stretch IP in an extreme pitching park are both symptoms of the flaw that you buy pitching by IP (IP is definitely a multiplier in the price calculation) but use it up by a flawed Pitch Count model.

- This limit (1) protects newbies from themselves, by forcing them to draft a low but usable total of IP. It also (2) gives a little protection to everyone from the guys who think nothing of throwing Hiball Wilson every 4th start.

It's an interim step. It's not perfect. But the number is a very solid basis.

1. Only affects Open and Champs leagues, go play a Theme
I can go play a Theme League if I want, sure... but "If you don't like it, get out" isn't very persuasive, as arguments go.

2. It's only too low if you're using a semi-fatigue strategy
I don't buy this. I usually play in neutralish parks that harm triples and encourage something else. I never draft 1300 keepable innings. I aim for the 1200-1250 range. With judicious use of AAA - not throwing games - I have no problem getting through a season. If I used a serious pitchers' park, there's no way I'd need 1250 RL innings. This is important, and it gets overlooked a lot: The most important factor in the number of innings you can get out of a pitcher is the quality of that pitcher. The better he is at preventing baserunners, the fewer pitches he'll use to finish innings. It doesn't have to be any kind of fatigue strategy.

3. Low BB, low K pitchers in pitchers' parks are a loophole to be closed
If fielding works anywhere close to correctly, low-BB, low-K pitchers throwing fewer pitches is not a loophole. It's reality. They just do throw fewer pitches. If they do that in a low-hit environment, that's not a problem. It's just a thing that's true.

4.1 Noobs
Screw the newbies. Seriously. If the noob didn't read anything about the game before he tried to put a team together, that shouldn't affect how I have to draft my team. I want a floor, at about 1000. That's more "protection" than anyone deserves.

4.2 Fatiguers again
Excellent! I agree! However, you're handicapping lots of other players (and it is a handicap) in order to... maybe hamper the strategy. If grizzly or somebody drafts a Gilmore or two to meet the minimum, he's just gonna put Bill Bergen (what's his new $?) at C and draft the rest of his team like he did before.

So do you ALWAYS have to have 1250 and 5000, when you draft and hit the ww? Can you draft that much, then release some scrub with alot of innings oor pa then release them for someone good?

Quote: Originally posted by clackumus on 10/14/2009So do you ALWAYS have to have 1250 and 5000, when you draft and hit the ww? Can you draft that much, then release some scrub with alot of innings oor pa then release them for someone good?

no, the minimums are retained throughout the season.

This kind of sucks, I can work around it but isnt it my $12.95? I should be able to draft whatever kind of team I want.

I can't believe people are complaining about 1250 IPs. They should make it 1300 or 1350 (which equates to a full season when you incorporate the 10% bonus). Those of you who like to cut corners and draft less are going to be in for a rude awakening when WIS goes to an IP-based fatigue model (over the current pitches-thrown model).

The 1000-IP strategy is going to be obsolete anyway, so you might as well get used to drafting a reasonable amount of IPs now.

Quote: Originally Posted By houseofbayne on 10/13/2009Would those who do not like a minimum IP requirement instead be in favor of putting a price tag on the ballparks? Just curious. It seems unfair that one could draft less IP, less PA's, more quality, and then on top of it play in a ballpark (like Petco or Safeco) that alters outcomes more than any other park.

That's a pretty interesting idea...

Everyone is entitled to there opinion of course, but I still disagree. It's my money if I want to draft a team of 200k pitchers and hitters I should be able too. The best players adapt with change and rise to the top anyway.

I don't play Open Leagues, but I gotta agree with biglen and schwartze.

Maybe the limits in the Champs Leagues can be reduced to 1000 IPs and 4000 PAs. That gives allows more flexibility and/or strategery for those who have earned their stripes.

as usual everybody's got their own opinions and arguments, and nobody cares about others different opinions...

All I want to say is this, if you start enforcing min and max for IP and PA, and because that brings everyone to the same level, taking away options, why not set min and max for HR, BB, K... so that it gives a better chance to noobs and losing manager to challenge?!

Funny how I always read the same complaints from certain people criticizing others for drafting fewer IP than them, hey it works, but it's asking you to be more creative cause you really have to know how to make it work when you draft a minimum of innings, many little details come into play that you have to figure out, that's micro-managing at it's best.

If it was that easy to just draft 1150 and go through 162 games, playoffs and win, more people would do it. I rarely see guys drafting under 1200 in OL because actually it's not that easy, you're taking chances and sometimes you pay for it and run outta gas in the stretch, that's part of the game.

So take away this option and you're taking away managing skills. That's what I don't like. There's enough randomnes, luck and inconsistencies already in this game, I want to keep as much control as possible on how I create and run my teams.

What some people call "taking away managing skills", others call "closing game-play loopholes." Drafting 1000 innings and getting away with it is taking advantage of a loophole, in my opinion.

Those that don't like the minimums can start a Theme League and set minimums to none. You can set all the theme league rules the same as open rules with the one exception. You can call the league "The No-Min IP Loophole League".

Of course, this probably won't happen, b/c those that like to take advantage of this don't want to play against others who also take advantage of this...

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