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I wouldn't call it a crusade, just my opinion. And I don't see it as helping everyone, just career D3 and D2 coaches. If we get a huge upswell in new coach retention at those levels, then I'll cede that point to those that have been hammering it, but until then I'll stand by that opinion.

wronoj, I never said D3 was easy, I said that recruiting wasn't as complex.

arssanguinus, that choice is somewhat made for you due to inherent D3 money limitations, wouldn't you say. Recruiting outside of a certain radius isn't feasible in most cases so why would you FSS them if you couldn't afford to recruit them. Of course there are players outside your radius, but scouting them makes more sense than FSS in D3 because you at least get recruiting credit for your money. I'm fairly certain that the successful coaches that go outside their radius aren't FSS'ing places like TX and FL when they go for those players.

3/3/2010 6:59 AM

theeyetest

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Quote: Originally posted by piratesfan23 on 3/03/2010A. We will be busy trying to get some recruits at the d3 level this year i need 6 recruits i think you need 5 correct.

E'rbody in the club gettin' tipsy. Nevertheless, congratulations for having the only non-subjective comment in this discussion.

3/3/2010 7:59 AM

isack24

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Quote: Originally Posted By doomey on 3/03/2010
arssanguinus, that choice is somewhat made for you due to inherent D3 money limitations, wouldn't you say. Recruiting outside of a certain radius isn't feasible in most cases so why would you FSS them if you couldn't afford to recruit them. Of course there are players outside your radius, but scouting them makes more sense than FSS in D3 because you at least get recruiting credit for your money. I'm fairly certain that the successful coaches that go outside their radius aren't FSS'ing places like TX and FL when they go for those players.

See, that's not necessarily true. There is a balance. If you can't find any pulldowns in your area, it's sometimes in your best interest to find the best D3 players in the country, and then it's essentially the same as D1 - except with much less money. It's a little hypocritical to require furry to play D1 before passing judgment on your opinion when you seem to be doing the same thing.

Recruiting might be tougher at D1, might not, depending on the season. Either way, I'm not sure how comparable they are because they are very different.

3/3/2010 8:28 AM

dalter

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Quote: Originally Posted By doomey on 3/03/2010
I wouldn't call it a crusade, just my opinion.

No, if it's just your opinion, you state it and move on. When you're arguing vehemently against it in multiple threads and debating every point thrown out there, that qualifies as crusading (let's not get caught up in semantics here).

And I don't see it as helping everyone,

It helps DII/DIII coaches and it helps the health of HD at the lower levels. And just as important, it doesn't hurt anyone, so why in the world would you try to fight against it?

3/3/2010 8:59 AM

doomey

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Quote: Originally Posted By isack24 on 3/03/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By doomey on 3/03/2010

arssanguinus, that choice is somewhat made for you due to inherent D3 money limitations, wouldn't you say. Recruiting outside of a certain radius isn't feasible in most cases so why would you FSS them if you couldn't afford to recruit them. Of course there are players outside your radius, but scouting them makes more sense than FSS in D3 because you at least get recruiting credit for your money. I'm fairly certain that the successful coaches that go outside their radius aren't FSS'ing places like TX and FL when they go for those players.

See, that's not necessarily true. There is a balance. If you can't find any pulldowns in your area, it's sometimes in your best interest to find the best D3 players in the country, and then it's essentially the same as D1 - except with much less money. It's a little hypocritical to require furry to play D1 before passing judgment on your opinion when you seem to be doing the same thing.

Recruiting might be tougher at D1, might not, depending on the season. Either way, I'm not sure how comparable they are because they are very different.

LOL, that would imply my not having ever played in the lower divisions, which is obviously impossible. Either way your statement doesn't contradict mine. I clearly said that some will go for people out of their radius, I was making the point that in doing so you won't neccessarily FSS those states in D3; in general you will not. The fact that you and furry talk about pull-downs illuminates one of the other mitigating factors; top D3/D2 teams can pull-down higher division recruits (which makes the term top recruit a much more variable one), whereas the top ceiling in D1 in finite and thus more difficult to attain due to competition for those recruits.

I don't find comparisons all that difficult, sorry. 70% of it is identical, it's just that 30% that can be compared and valued. I can't say that I'm unobjectified entirely, but I feel I'm also less so than say someone who mainly plays in those divisions. It's kind of like AA and the majors. I'm sure a AA player will tell you that it is the most difficult level because you have to fight harder to get ahead, whereas the major leaguer will insist that the competition in still there it's just harder to maintain in bigs due to factors the minor leaguers don't have to deal with. Both are correct in their assessment of the challenges, but most would say that the major leaguer has a more difficult job.

3/3/2010 10:52 AM

doomey

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Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 3/03/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By doomey on 3/03/2010

I wouldn't call it a crusade, just my opinion.

No, if it's just your opinion, you state it and move on. When you're arguing vehemently against it in multiple threads and debating every point thrown out there, that qualifies as crusading (let's not get caught up in semantics here).

And I don't see it as helping everyone,

It helps DII/DIII coaches and it helps the health of HD at the lower levels. And just as important, it doesn't hurt anyone, so why in the world would you try to fight against it?

Really, man. So defending your opinion is now a crusade?! Interesting. I'll keep that in mind. I'll only expect on and done statements from you on most issues then? No, actually I won't, because I'm not that high handed, dalt. I fully expect everyone to be able to discuss things and I'm cool with that and I'm eqally cool with agreeing to disagree on the opinion itself without having to continually go down the same road on forum authority. Aren't you "crusading" that the change is a neccessity for HD health? That is an opinion as well, one that you have defended in multiple threads and suggested to seble... That is your deep belief and I can still respect it while disagreeing.

You have yet to prove that second point (health improvement). Until you can, you are just throwing up that straw man. There is no proof whatsoever that the change affect the health of HD initially, and as I said, if it in itself generates a groundswell of new coachs, I'll retract any statements to the contrary. But until then, I'll have something to say about any "crusade" that says it will or has had a major effect on retention of more than a handful of coachs. There is no data to back that up. THAT is one of the reasons I continue to harp on the issue; disingenuous rationals.

3/3/2010 11:06 AM

aporter

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Thought this was a thread about the new reward structure.

3/3/2010 11:14 AM

dalter

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First, I'm not saying that it all has to be one-and-done, obviously. But you're getting caught up in the word "crusade". I just have absolutely zero idea whatsoever why anyone would go out of their way to campaign against something that helps people here and doesn't hurt anyone. That is my problem with you on this.

And to call the rationalel disingenuous is insulting. There was a significant exodus of veteran coaches from DII and DIII after the rewards points debacle. That is a fact that we all know. I don't have the exact #'s, nor would I spend a millisecond even attempting to research. But anyone who was here and saw the very obvious before-and-after saw it happen.

3/3/2010 11:31 AM

doomey

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It's a fact that people (or pared down because they con't play as cheaply), what is debatable is whether it was an exodus and whether it hurt the growth of HD which is what some where saying. The easiest way to resolve this is to let it lay and look in 5 seasons to see if it has provided a substanitive increase in population, including new user retention at the lower levels.

As to your first point, I just think that the old/new system doesn't help D1, where I think the game should be strongest and best incentivized. I said numerous times that I thought the lower divisions should be rewarded better than the current system, I just don't think it makes sense to make them all equal, that's all. Your opinion on that issue differs, but my thinking isn't coming out of field or from a position of animous towards any other coachs.

3/3/2010 12:17 PM

isack24

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Quote: Originally Posted By doomey on 3/03/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By isack24 on 3/03/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By doomey on 3/03/2010

arssanguinus, that choice is somewhat made for you due to inherent D3 money limitations, wouldn't you say. Recruiting outside of a certain radius isn't feasible in most cases so why would you FSS them if you couldn't afford to recruit them. Of course there are players outside your radius, but scouting them makes more sense than FSS in D3 because you at least get recruiting credit for your money. I'm fairly certain that the successful coaches that go outside their radius aren't FSS'ing places like TX and FL when they go for those players.

See, that's not necessarily true. There is a balance. If you can't find any pulldowns in your area, it's sometimes in your best interest to find the best D3 players in the country, and then it's essentially the same as D1 - except with much less money. It's a little hypocritical to require furry to play D1 before passing judgment on your opinion when you seem to be doing the same thing.

Recruiting might be tougher at D1, might not, depending on the season. Either way, I'm not sure how comparable they are because they are very different.

LOL, that would imply my not having ever played in the lower divisions, which is obviously impossible. Either way your statement doesn't contradict mine. I clearly said that some will go for people out of their radius, I was making the point that in doing so you won't neccessarily FSS those states in D3; in general you will not. The fact that you and furry talk about pull-downs illuminates one of the other mitigating factors; top D3/D2 teams can pull-down higher division recruits (which makes the term top recruit a much more variable one), whereas the top ceiling in D1 in finite and thus more difficult to attain due to competition for those recruits.

I don't find comparisons all that difficult, sorry. 70% of it is identical, it's just that 30% that can be compared and valued. I can't say that I'm unobjectified entirely, but I feel I'm also less so than say someone who mainly plays in those divisions. It's kind of like AA and the majors. I'm sure a AA player will tell you that it is the most difficult level because you have to fight harder to get ahead, whereas the major leaguer will insist that the competition in still there it's just harder to maintain in bigs due to factors the minor leaguers don't have to deal with. Both are correct in their assessment of the challenges, but most would say that the major leaguer has a more difficult job.

No, it would imply that you haven't played D3 since FSS was instituted. Mabye that's not true, but it sure seems like it.

And of course you FSS the states you recruit players from. Either that or waste money you don't have on evals. I'm not risking that someone is never going to get better. That wouldn't make me a very good coach.

Well, I have one team in each division, so I'll go ahead and say I am as objective as anyone else.

That's a terrible analogy. There is a huge talent discrepancy between AA and the Majors. We are arguing that with the amount of great coaches at D3, the talent discrepancy doesn't exist sufficient to justify the rewards difference.

3/3/2010 12:45 PM

doomey

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I wasn't ever arguing talent descrepacy. I've made that abunantly clear.

And no, you don't ALWAYS FSS the states you recruit from in D3, it isn't economicly feasable in many cases to FSS all the states you have interest in or just for one guy. It's slight OT anyway, but if you are FSS every state you have prospects in, you might want to rethink that. No need to FSS TX if you are in NY when a scouting report is cheaper and gets you credit.

3/3/2010 1:28 PM

taz21

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I can say w/ 100% certaintity, that recruiting at my D3 Chicago team is significantly tougher than recruiting at either my D1 Texas squad or my D1 Georgetown squad. Hell in some seasons, Texas recruiting is almost a draft of who I want, spend 5k per recruit in the initial cycle and sit back and watch no one else show up. Not every season by any means, but I bet I finish recruiting @ texas w/ over $40k over and a ranked recruiting class than seasons I end up w/ less than $20k.

Prior to FSS, there is no question recruiting at Chicago was the easiest thing in this game for me. My A+ prestige allowed me to pull down recruits other's couldn't easily bring in players from alaska or colorado or california that other's couldn't w/o fear that others could/would poach them from me. Post FSS, recruiting at Chicago is a pain in the *** and a big reason why I've lost my interest in D3. I lost interest in gameplanning a long time ago, but always enjoyed recruiting at any level. D1 is still interesting w/ the huge sums of money, particularly at Georgetown as I bash heads vs Maryland every season, but D3 requires much more work than I feel like putting in, which is turn has me short on talent and why I'm finally hanging things up at Chicago after 20+ seasons.

3/3/2010 3:12 PM

a_in_the_b

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Quote: Originally posted by doomey on 3/03/2010I wouldn't call it a crusade, just my opinion. And I don't see it as helping everyone, just career D3 and D2 coaches. If we get a huge upswell in new coach retention at those levels, then I'll cede that point to those that have been hammering it, but until then I'll stand by that opinion.wronoj, I never said D3 was easy, I said that recruiting wasn't as complex.arssanguinus, that choice is somewhat made for you due to inherent D3 money limitations, wouldn't you say. Recruiting outside of a certain radius isn't feasible in most cases so why would you FSS them if you couldn't afford to recruit them. Of course there are players outside your radius, but scouting them makes more sense than FSS in D3 because you at least get recruiting credit for your money. I'm fairly certain that the successful coaches that go outside their radius aren't FSS'ing places like TX and FL when they go for those players.

No, I wouldn't say. Sometimes there is just flat nobody in your state, and you have to recruit elsewhere. Or even worse, you are in Texas and its almost cheaper to recruit players far away than to buy FSS for your own state.

On the other hand, at DIII its VERY important to find those high potential gems.

3/3/2010 3:21 PM

isack24

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Quote: Originally Posted By doomey on 3/03/2010
I wasn't ever arguing talent descrepacy. I've made that abunantly clear.

And no, you don't ALWAYS FSS the states you recruit from in D3, it isn't economicly feasable in many cases to FSS all the states you have interest in or just for one guy. It's slight OT anyway, but if you are FSS every state you have prospects in, you might want to rethink that. No need to FSS TX if you are in NY when a scouting report is cheaper and gets you credit

Actually I do. Why would I waste money on evals when I can FSS an entire state and get all of the information I want instead of hoping to get it through evals?

Anyway, we're off track.

Here's the main point:

Pros: potential customer retention and customer attraction

Cons: None

3/3/2010 3:47 PM

jfinn19

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When are they planning on implementing these changes?

3/4/2010 11:03 PM

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