Posted by isack24 on 1/4/2011 11:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by asher413 on 1/4/2011 10:51:00 AM (view original):
How fast was the guy at the plate as well?  If he's a terribly slow runner, your SS has more time to check the runner at third.

40 something, I think, but like I said, I don't think it matters.  I even agreed that he probably has time to take a peek to third, but he's never going home.  The risk/reward weighs heavily on risk.

Posted by isack24 on 1/4/2011 12:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/4/2011 8:50:00 AM (view original):

Posted by isack24 on 1/4/2011 8:39:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/4/2011 8:36:00 AM (view original):
You don't think speed factors into whether a runner goes?   It does for stealing.  Why wouldn't it with taking the extra bag?

Because of defensive indifference to the situation. 

Ahhh, I think we might be onto something.

Defensive indifference.  

I don't think this applies at all.   The pitcher is not allowing the runner at third to move at will.   The 3B may not be covering the bag.  The pitcher may not be pitching from the stretch.  But the runner isn't wandering halfway down the line.   He's not going to be allowed to steal home.   Then you have a routine ball to the SS.   He's taking a brief glance at the runner even if he has no intention of throwing home.   Because it's good baseball to see if he's hung up between 3B and home.  He has time to throw to 1B.   There's no reason he wouldn't take a quick glance. 

I don't really disagree with that.

But, unless I see something really wrong (like the guy laying on the ground, or only being a third of the way home for some reason) I'm going to first.  You figure even the slowest guys can run a top-speed 15 yards around two seconds.  So, if the guy is even halfway home, the SS will have to peek over, turn his body (because he should field in a position to go to first), make a strong, accurate 120+ foot throw, and hope that nothing goes wrong at the plate, all in under two seconds.  The risk/reward just isn't there in a four-run game with eight outs to go.

isack you said you played SS at a high level and had a pro-level arm. Well I can say the same and my take is different than yours. If my team is up by 4 in the 7th with one out, I am going to first automatically most of the time and in some cases (slow roller, high chopper, or something else that will limit my time to get the out at first), I wouldn't even look at third. But in this situation, with a slow runner on third and a slow runner at the plate, if the ball is hit sharply to me I have all the time in the world to look the runner back or even throw home if he decides to run. I don't know where you played but automatically going to first 99.9% of the time is something they might teach in little league but once you have gained the knowledge and experience necessary to be able to make snap decisions I think the possibility to throw home is going to be there at least some of the time. I am not saying I would take a risk but if the situation presented itself for a somewhat easy out at the plate, I would take it. The point is, nothing is certain.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/4/2011 12:10:00 PM (view original):
By the way, I could have sworn I saw Posada get thrown out in the manner you suggest never happens.    I'm not going to dig for it because I've watched a thousand games in Posada's career but I do recall thinking "How slow can he be?"

Posted by jtrinsey on 1/4/2011 12:13:00 PM (view original):
"have you ever seen, at the ML-level, a SS come home on a routine play to short with the infield at normal depth? "

No, but I once saw Jayson Werth (I think it was him) get picked off at second by the catcher. There's also those famous clips of guys throwing a ball into the stands when it was only two outs and stuff like that. I remember seeing one of the Molina brothers hit a routine fly ball with one out and a runner on first. The guy on first takes a few steps off the bag and waits for it to be caught, but Molina just charged around 1st base and flew right by him and they both were out. I might not have the exact details, but it was something like that.

The point is, baseball players (even pros) do stupid things sometimes. A slow bastard not scoring from 3rd in this situation is hardly on the level of any of those gaffes, so give it a rest.

The "give it a rest" crap is obnoxious.  One, you don't have to join the discussion.  Two, you're making a point that I've already conceded - stupidity creates exceptions to all sorts of things.  If you're not going to read the thread, and understand which discussion is currently going on, then maybe you should "give it a rest."

Posted by timf on 1/4/2011 12:13:00 PM (view original):

isack you said you played SS at a high level and had a pro-level arm. Well I can say the same and my take is different than yours. If my team is up by 4 in the 7th with one out, I am going to first automatically most of the time and in some cases (slow roller, high chopper, or something else that will limit my time to get the out at first), I wouldn't even look at third. But in this situation, with a slow runner on third and a slow runner at the plate, if the ball is hit sharply to me I have all the time in the world to look the runner back or even throw home if he decides to run. I don't know where you played but automatically going to first 99.9% of the time is something they might teach in little league but once you have gained the knowledge and experience necessary to be able to make snap decisions I think the possibility to throw home is going to be there at least some of the time. I am not saying I would take a risk but if the situation presented itself for a somewhat easy out at the plate, I would take it. The point is, nothing is certain.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/4/2011 12:21:00 PM (view original):
Surely, if you've played, you know you set yourself to make throws in a certain direction.   Neutral, in this case, would not be to throw to first or home.  Just somewhere in the middle where quick shuffle of the feet gets you pointing in the right direction.   Of course, I'm not positive that a professional ballplayer HAS to be pointed in the right direction.  They have the arm of a professional SS.

And we're not necessarily talking about a close play.   If it's a close play, I don't think the SS throws home.   He's not setting his catcher up to get plowed.   But, if he can get the runner by a few steps, there is a reward worth having for making the play.

Posted by timf on 1/4/2011 12:16:00 PM (view original):
MikeT - "professional ballplayers don't expect things to go wrong at the plate.  It isn't Little League where the catcher might miss the poorly thrown ball.   The ball will likely, at worst, hit the catcher in the chest.  At best, it's between the hip and the knee so a tag is easy.   By keeping the score at 5-1 instead of 5-2, one swing of the bat cannot win the game.   There is a reward for throwing out a runner at home."
Perfectly said.