Silver Slugger Rant Topic

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tedwmoore
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Posted by MikeT23 on 7/9/2012 2:56:00 PM (view original):
Then you'd know 180 AB is about 1/4 of a season.   Taking an elite player out of the line-up for 40 games is a pretty big hurdle to overcome.   Now, if you want to argue that Riley or Wirth aren't elite or that Hegan is on the same level, I'll pay for your rehab  . 
If we are talking value, then Riley probably edges Wirth this season, based mostly on playing time and superior defense.  But that isn't relevant to the SS award which goes to the best offensive player at each position.

Moving forward, I still take Wirth.  His lack of playing time this season was due to injury, and though his 55 health makes him a continuing injury risk when healthy he is capable of playing a full 162, or close to it.  Both entering their age-31 season, Wirth has the better makeup, better contact and splits and batting eye, much better base runner:  I take him. 
7/9/2012 3:30 PM
dedelman
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Wait, Mike, take a step back and think.  Wirth + 180 AB of a replacement value LF is MUCH more valuable than Riley.

Riley created 148 runs in Arizona.  That park adjusts down at least 3-4%; call it 142.
Wirth created 129 runs in SF.  That park-adjusts up at least 2-3%; call it 133.

Mike, you could create 9 runs in 180 AB.  That's a little over 1 RC/27, or what my average pitcher created in Coop last year.

It's not that the quarter of a season doesn't matter; it's that Wirth is really that much better than Riley.
7/9/2012 3:31 PM
deanod
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Posted by MikeT23 on 7/9/2012 3:17:00 PM (view original):
Just trying to get you and zbrent to focus.

"If I had to decide between them for one AB, in the 5th inning of a 4-2 game, with runners on 2nd and 3rd, one out and a lefty on the mound in Colorado Springs....."
i already did my focus

add up wirth's RC with the backup turd's RC pro-rated to 171 PA, and it's like 2 less than whathisotherface's RC, and that's not factoring in ballparks etc.  they're worth v close to the same.
7/9/2012 3:31 PM
tedwmoore
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Posted by dedelman on 7/9/2012 3:32:00 PM (view original):
Wait, Mike, take a step back and think.  Wirth + 180 AB of a replacement value LF is MUCH more valuable than Riley.

Riley created 148 runs in Arizona.  That park adjusts down at least 3-4%; call it 142.
Wirth created 129 runs in SF.  That park-adjusts up at least 2-3%; call it 133.

Mike, you could create 9 runs in 180 AB.  That's a little over 1 RC/27, or what my average pitcher created in Coop last year.

It's not that the quarter of a season doesn't matter; it's that Wirth is really that much better than Riley.
+1

Both put together career seasons though, kind of hard to use this season alone to evaluate them as they move into their 30s.
7/9/2012 3:34 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by dedelman on 7/9/2012 3:32:00 PM (view original):
Wait, Mike, take a step back and think.  Wirth + 180 AB of a replacement value LF is MUCH more valuable than Riley.

Riley created 148 runs in Arizona.  That park adjusts down at least 3-4%; call it 142.
Wirth created 129 runs in SF.  That park-adjusts up at least 2-3%; call it 133.

Mike, you could create 9 runs in 180 AB.  That's a little over 1 RC/27, or what my average pitcher created in Coop last year.

It's not that the quarter of a season doesn't matter; it's that Wirth is really that much better than Riley.
In a game with limited resources, I'd take the guy who plays 162 and produces a similar number.   More options.
7/9/2012 3:40 PM
dedelman
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Posted by MikeT23 on 7/9/2012 3:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dedelman on 7/9/2012 3:32:00 PM (view original):
Wait, Mike, take a step back and think.  Wirth + 180 AB of a replacement value LF is MUCH more valuable than Riley.

Riley created 148 runs in Arizona.  That park adjusts down at least 3-4%; call it 142.
Wirth created 129 runs in SF.  That park-adjusts up at least 2-3%; call it 133.

Mike, you could create 9 runs in 180 AB.  That's a little over 1 RC/27, or what my average pitcher created in Coop last year.

It's not that the quarter of a season doesn't matter; it's that Wirth is really that much better than Riley.
In a game with limited resources, I'd take the guy who plays 162 and produces a similar number.   More options.
That's a valid choice; not one I would make given that you could add a bottom-feeding FA, or play your back-up SS in LF, and still get more offense out of the position, but valid.  But unless you think park-adjusted RC is the only criterion for the SS, and the number of outs you used to get there is irrelevant, It's not a valid argument regarding the SS award.  Which is what we were talking about. 
7/9/2012 3:46 PM
MikeT23
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If you read my first post on the subject, I wasn't talking about the SS award.   Without actually saying it, I was talking about the MVP. 

Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Greg Wood is a good example.   I put him at SS and forget about it.
7/9/2012 3:57 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by MikeT23 on 7/9/2012 11:20:00 AM (view original):
Riley was more valuable.  I know that's not jtpops' argument but I'm sure 100% of us would take 663 AB of Riley over 480 AB of Wirth.
Of course, I'm no longer 100% sure that the 2nd part of this statement is correct.
7/9/2012 4:05 PM
Jtpsops
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Posted by MikeT23 on 7/9/2012 11:20:00 AM (view original):
Riley was more valuable.  I know that's not jtpops' argument but I'm sure 100% of us would take 663 AB of Riley over 480 AB of Wirth.
This is my argument. I know I've brought up other points throughout the thread, but people here are arguing "Wirth is the better offensive player!!" I'm not necessarily disputing that. Clearly, if we go purely by offensive ratings (durability excluded), Wirth has the edge. But the award isn't given based on ratings, it's given based on stats.

So when someone says "the Silver Slugger goes to the best offensive player at each position", what that really means is the best offensive player at each position THIS SEASON. In which case, contrary to Ted's claims, the fact that Riley logged 183 more ABs at near = production means he had the better offensive year. As mike has said, having a guy who has 9.7 RC/27 is great, but unless you have a guy on your bench who can put up the same numbers in the other quarter of your games, that starts to decrease the overall value of his offensive season in comparison to the guy who played 162.
7/9/2012 6:55 PM
toddcommish
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You guys know that the Silver Slugger Award for imaginary players means about as much as an Espy, right?

7/9/2012 7:39 PM
MikeT23
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Well, that's not exactly what I said.   And if you start running RC out to support your argument, you're going to lose.

Riley was more valuable because he was out there for 162.  An easy argument can be made for Wirth being the better hitter(using RC for support). 

My point was Riley could win the MVP but not the SS. 
7/9/2012 7:43 PM
Jtpsops
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Ted has been throwing out this whole thread that "Wirth is better and the only reason it's close is because he didn't play a full season".  That argument can easily go the other way - if Wirth had finished the year, his overall numbers could easily have dipped below Riley's. Durability should be considered when determining who was the best offensive player in a given season.

And no, you may not have said it exactly as I did, but you said that unless you have a backup who can perform as well as Wirth, he's not as valuable as a guy who plays 162 with similar stats, which is true.
7/9/2012 8:03 PM
tedwmoore
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Posted by Jtpsops on 7/9/2012 8:03:00 PM (view original):
Ted has been throwing out this whole thread that "Wirth is better and the only reason it's close is because he didn't play a full season".  That argument can easily go the other way - if Wirth had finished the year, his overall numbers could easily have dipped below Riley's. Durability should be considered when determining who was the best offensive player in a given season.

And no, you may not have said it exactly as I did, but you said that unless you have a backup who can perform as well as Wirth, he's not as valuable as a guy who plays 162 with similar stats, which is true.
The only time I said anything close to this is when I responded to Mike's comment about Riley being more valuable. Otherwise I have been pretty consistent in saying that their batting lines were similar and that the park effects make it pretty clear that Wirth was the better hitter this season. When I have addressed playing time it was to comment that playing time was irrelevant for the SS award so long as the player meets the minimum at bats for the batting title.
7/9/2012 8:22 PM
caesari
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Posted by toddcommish on 7/9/2012 7:39:00 PM (view original):

You guys know that the Silver Slugger Award for imaginary players means about as much as an Espy, right?

Are you insuating that ESPYs aren't valuable?!?
7/9/2012 9:33 PM
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