Posted by darnoc29099 on 1/23/2016 12:41:00 PM (view original):
Oh man. It's been awhile since bistiza really dug in on a topic and defended his point to the death. I've missed this.
I wanted to make a few points but before I do so I should disclose I'm a pretty big Peyton fan and absolutely despise Brady and the Patriots.
Manning played with 2 HOF WRs for much of his career (Harrison and Wayne) and had a crazy talented Edgerrin James until 2005. If you're argument is Harrison and Wayne were only good because of Manning I'll remind you Manning probably throws the worst ball of any QB in the NFL. If those guys couldn't run routes and create a little separation Manning's wounded ducks would have been in trouble. That said, no one prepared more than Peyton. I remember watching a show on him where on gameday he'd throw 10 ins, 10 outs, 10 slants, 10 hooks, etc to his WRs to make sure their timing was on point.
Brady had Moss for 3 seasons and depending on how healthy Gronk stays Moss will be the only HOF skill position WR Brady EVER played with. Brady had the far superior offensive line-no argument there. But Bis, you keep saying Brady had "great" WRs....he had 1, for 3 seasons. Welker was very good but like Edelman they are both system guys...not elite by any means and won't ever be in the HOF discussion. Same with Branch, Amendola, Gaffney, Troy Brown, Givens, Caldwell, Terry Glenn, Brandon Lloyd, and Dante Stallworth. Not exactly the who's who of WR talent in the NFL.
Here's a serious question though-if being a game manager (which is what I believe you're saying Brady is) why don't more game managers win Super Bowls? In the last 23 seasons there have been 2 mediocre QBs to win a SB (Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer). I'll entertain the idea Brady is the best game manager of all-time but you make it sound being a game manager is so easy and anyone can do it.
Last, you were backwards in your Culpepper analogy. Moss made Culpepper. What happened when Randy left and Culpepper had no one to stretch the field? Look up Culpepper's stats-he was done after Randy left him.
Here's to hoping Peyton can pull one out tomorrow as nothing would make me happier.
I'm glad to see you've missed it when I've defended a perfectly reasonable (yet often unpopular) opinion.
With all due respect, part of the reason Harrison and Wayne were so good is because they played with Peyton, whose play calling and audible abilities also made it much easier for James to run.
I disagree Manning throws "the worst ball" even now, and when he was younger he was better. I'm not sure where you get this idea of "wounded ducks". Until his injuries (and possible age) got in the way, I never heard anyone question his ability to throw (and with good reason as I never saw any sign of what you're saying here).
Yes, Peyton prepared more (and better) than anyone in history. IMO, he has the highest football IQ of anyone, ever. Having him on the field was like having an extra offensive coordinator with incredible skill right in the huddle and at he line of scrimmage, making decisions on the spot.
Seriously, if you doubt this, you've never seen or heard about how detailed his calls were at the line of scrimmage when he was with the Colts. He'd call everything at the line and change plays at will. Yes, he had great team mates that allowed him to do this, but it's still amazing to think about because NOBODY ELSE has ever done this to this level, now or in the past.
If you have a few minutes and want to learn more, here's an amusing video -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH5gwHHjZ7Q
A great coach, system, O-line, and defense made Brady look good early in his career. When Randy Moss arrived, that took it over the top. The team was already loaded with talent that season, but it was Moss' presence which made undefeated possible. It wasn't just the catches and TDs he got - it was the fact he drew so much attention, even when he never saw the ball come his way. There is no way to quantify how much that helped the Pats win. Moss was the MVP that year, but it went to Brady.
Moss wasn't the only great receiver Brady had. Welker was practically born to play the Pats system and make Brady look great. Brady's bread and butter is to dump short, high percentage passes off to talented receivers and let them get the yards, and Welker was great at that.
Look at who he has now. Sure, Gronkowski is a great weapon, no doubt, but look at Edelman and Amendola. They're the same type of threat, maybe not quite on Welker's level, but far above average.
You say Welker and Edelman are system guys, but that's EXACTLY what BRADY is - a system guy. He's never had to deal with any more than one team, one coach, one system, taylor-made for him to dink and dunk most of the time. All the receivers you mentioned are above average guys many of whom also came through big in the clutch.
Game managers DO win Super Bowls - if they have great talent around them, and great coaching doesn't hurt. Brady has had great talent around him and great coaching his entire career.
I wasn't backward in my Culpepper analogy. You apparently interpreted it incorrectly, as what you just said above is EXACTLY the point I was making in the first place. Moss MADE Culpepper look great, and he also MADE Brady look great the same way.