Posted by pallas on 2/20/2021 4:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by topdogggbm on 2/20/2021 3:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by pallas on 2/20/2021 12:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by topdogggbm on 2/19/2021 7:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by fd343ny on 2/18/2021 7:14:00 PM (view original):
are there really folks at power five jobs who have not had a winning season in 20 years? really?

I totally agree that firings should be increased - with warnings along the way (better than the "expectations" messages - and better criteria.

There are coaches out there that aren't making NTs in 20 seasons in Big 6 conferences I believe. With baseline prestige being a thing, getting an A+ school down in the B- and C ranges, is grounds to be fired in my opinion.

I think people that are glued to a school for 60 seasons and say they'd quit if they got their team taken away, they don't even "have fun" playing the game anymore. They just go thru the motions. Let me be loud and clear, I'm the LEAST job hopping guy out there. I get a school and I stay. I've never moved back down a division. And I don't consider a coach moving UP a division to be a job hopping coach. Point is, I'm a guy that wants to stay put and build. But, as much fun as it is to get to the school of your choice, it gets stale. The times I move up and change jobs, I realize once again how fun this game is. And I don't realize it until I do it.

firings should be a MUST for big 6. As far as the season caps (whether it's 30, 50, 200 seasons, whatever), by the time someones been at a school that long, they're like a grumpy old man. Stuck in their ways. A change in schools would bring back some fun that has been forgotten, and it wouldn't turn out as bad as they think..... "my screen has had a red logo for 60 seasons, and now I have to look at a blue one. This sucks"...... really guys? We're playing a game. We're not owners of a piece of property.

I love staying put. But after 60 seasons I would love it if someone smacked me in the face and said, you've been there forever! Go do something else for fun! That's way to long.
Firings for poor performance at a Big 6 should be a thing, that's simple.

But I am strongly against a season cap on coaches who've been at the same school for a long time, especially if they are still successful. I have Indiana in Wooden. I'm from Indiana and grew up watching IU. I have Oklahoma State in Iba. I graduated from OSU, and waited patiently to qualify for them. While there, I've made multiple Elite Eights and even won a title -- OSU's first in 3.0.

If I were suddenly told, "Oh, you've been at Oklahoma State for sixty seasons. It's time to leave and take a random job, maybe Ole Miss or Nebraska?" my excitement for HD would certainly lessen, probably significantly. For me, OSU, and even IU, hasn't gotten stale, and I'm definitely not going through the motions. I'm not a grumpy old man. I'm not stuck in my ways. Getting to my alma mater, then winning a championship at my alma mater is my single greatest moment in HD.

So I respect your opinion, as always, top, but I couldn't disagree more.
Fair enough. And I'm sure you'd be VERY disappointed if you had to leave your school. I believe that. And wouldn't argue that.

What I do argue is that if you were forced to leave, when you get good ol Iowa or LSU because you had to leave, you'd have fun playing the game there too. That is my point. The game isn't fun because of Indiana or Oklahoma St. It's fun because it's fun and I think we forget that at times.

You had fun this entire time GETTING to your school of choice I would imagine, no?
The game is MORE fun--by a wide margin--than when I was coaching anywhere else. If I were suddenly told I had to leave, it would cease being so fun for me. I know I wouldn't care as much about Iowa or LSU as I do with Oklahoma State. Day one in WIS, I looked at Oklahoma State. That was the goal. I joined a second world because Oklahoma State was taken in my first world.

If it's stale for people, let them make that decision. Like you did. DII had gotten stale for you, so you went to DI in some of your worlds, and now the game, as you said earlier, is more fun for you. My friend Crab had the game get stale for him at Oregon, so he went to Miami. Boom, no longer stale. If the game's not stale for me, and if I'm still making the NT and winning games in the NT, don't force me out to play the game a certain way. It will then be less fun. Personal connection makes the game fun for me, and I'm sure for many others. That's why we have dream jobs.
agree with this completely.
2/20/2021 6:43 PM
Posted by gillispie1 on 2/20/2021 12:08:00 AM (view original):
i don't know why a couple coaches are so frequently rocking those 8 seeds with those freshman. if you look in the 3-5 seeds you see more of the freshman heavy 1 seed caliber teams i think than those 6-10. usually a 1 seed with basically an inverted lineup should still be pulling a 3 or something. i'm honestly not sure what some folks do to take such good teams to those low seeds, its almost like they get a kick out of it and are doing it on purpose :)

i know i am one of the hyperbole-pushers on this but shoe is right that its overdone a bit, i've sort of softened my stance a bit. seeding may not matter much to me or perhaps as many as a couple dozen other high d1 coaches, but it does matter to most folks. and i sure as **** care if my 1 seed team drops to an 8!! that is a pretty real cost. 90% of my championship teams were not good enough to hand wave away a 1 to 8 drop, i can only think of 3 teams that were so good that a 1 to 8 (or 16 - roughly same thing) drop would have barely dented my odds. whenever i've had to sell my 'regular season doesn't matter, seeding doesn't matter, we play for the NT only' view of HD to co-coaches, i've always used the same standard - maybe the 1 seed teams drop to a 3 instead, and i assure them that will only happen sometimes, that its usually not that bad...
Agree with Gil. I have had plenty of elite teams drop from #1 preseason to 2 or 3 seed...I've even have 1 extremely OP team drop to a 6 seed (they ended up winning the title) but that is an extreme minority. Illinois is *always* underseeded since I promise starts to every freshman, but it's mainly 1 to 2.
2/20/2021 7:08 PM
Posted by pallas on 2/20/2021 4:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by topdogggbm on 2/20/2021 3:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by pallas on 2/20/2021 12:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by topdogggbm on 2/19/2021 7:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by fd343ny on 2/18/2021 7:14:00 PM (view original):
are there really folks at power five jobs who have not had a winning season in 20 years? really?

I totally agree that firings should be increased - with warnings along the way (better than the "expectations" messages - and better criteria.

There are coaches out there that aren't making NTs in 20 seasons in Big 6 conferences I believe. With baseline prestige being a thing, getting an A+ school down in the B- and C ranges, is grounds to be fired in my opinion.

I think people that are glued to a school for 60 seasons and say they'd quit if they got their team taken away, they don't even "have fun" playing the game anymore. They just go thru the motions. Let me be loud and clear, I'm the LEAST job hopping guy out there. I get a school and I stay. I've never moved back down a division. And I don't consider a coach moving UP a division to be a job hopping coach. Point is, I'm a guy that wants to stay put and build. But, as much fun as it is to get to the school of your choice, it gets stale. The times I move up and change jobs, I realize once again how fun this game is. And I don't realize it until I do it.

firings should be a MUST for big 6. As far as the season caps (whether it's 30, 50, 200 seasons, whatever), by the time someones been at a school that long, they're like a grumpy old man. Stuck in their ways. A change in schools would bring back some fun that has been forgotten, and it wouldn't turn out as bad as they think..... "my screen has had a red logo for 60 seasons, and now I have to look at a blue one. This sucks"...... really guys? We're playing a game. We're not owners of a piece of property.

I love staying put. But after 60 seasons I would love it if someone smacked me in the face and said, you've been there forever! Go do something else for fun! That's way to long.
Firings for poor performance at a Big 6 should be a thing, that's simple.

But I am strongly against a season cap on coaches who've been at the same school for a long time, especially if they are still successful. I have Indiana in Wooden. I'm from Indiana and grew up watching IU. I have Oklahoma State in Iba. I graduated from OSU, and waited patiently to qualify for them. While there, I've made multiple Elite Eights and even won a title -- OSU's first in 3.0.

If I were suddenly told, "Oh, you've been at Oklahoma State for sixty seasons. It's time to leave and take a random job, maybe Ole Miss or Nebraska?" my excitement for HD would certainly lessen, probably significantly. For me, OSU, and even IU, hasn't gotten stale, and I'm definitely not going through the motions. I'm not a grumpy old man. I'm not stuck in my ways. Getting to my alma mater, then winning a championship at my alma mater is my single greatest moment in HD.

So I respect your opinion, as always, top, but I couldn't disagree more.
Fair enough. And I'm sure you'd be VERY disappointed if you had to leave your school. I believe that. And wouldn't argue that.

What I do argue is that if you were forced to leave, when you get good ol Iowa or LSU because you had to leave, you'd have fun playing the game there too. That is my point. The game isn't fun because of Indiana or Oklahoma St. It's fun because it's fun and I think we forget that at times.

You had fun this entire time GETTING to your school of choice I would imagine, no?
The game is MORE fun--by a wide margin--than when I was coaching anywhere else. If I were suddenly told I had to leave, it would cease being so fun for me. I know I wouldn't care as much about Iowa or LSU as I do with Oklahoma State. Day one in WIS, I looked at Oklahoma State. That was the goal. I joined a second world because Oklahoma State was taken in my first world.

If it's stale for people, let them make that decision. Like you did. DII had gotten stale for you, so you went to DI in some of your worlds, and now the game, as you said earlier, is more fun for you. My friend Crab had the game get stale for him at Oregon, so he went to Miami. Boom, no longer stale. If the game's not stale for me, and if I'm still making the NT and winning games in the NT, don't force me out to play the game a certain way. It will then be less fun. Personal connection makes the game fun for me, and I'm sure for many others. That's why we have dream jobs.
I get that. And I did get stale. And I did go to D1 because of it.

But I'm NOT having any more fun because of it. Haha. I still hate D1. And I still only love the game because of D2. I just did the D1 thing for something else to do.

Look, I completely understand that what I'm discussing here is not going to be positive for everybody. I have no connection to any team in this game at all. They're all the same to me. If I was told I had to start all over at all my teams all at once today, I wouldn't care at all (as long as it was being done across the board). They all operate the same (to ME. I understand everyone won't feel that way). I have no dream job. The dream job I do have is Michigan and I just got it 3 seasons ago. But if you took it away from me today I could care less to be honest. But my input is more based around some of the thoughts the community has mentioned. Not everyone will love change and not everyone loves how it is now. The only difference is that the vets are the known people here. The main coaches that comment. You, cub, etc. For every coach that has their dream job, there's 5 coaches behind you that are unhappy that they DON'T have that job I'm sure. They just aren't as vocal. So this topic is very important really. On one hand you have your vets that have been here for years. Long term customers. On the other hand the game needs to grow, and I'm sure there's plenty of coaches that leave out of frustration because they can't get these jobs. The easiest solution is to do nothing. But is it the best solution? Hell I don't know.

I know which camp you're in. And how you feel is how you feel. I appreciate the discussion (lucky for you, things of this magnitude never happen. It's just discussion points for those who would like to have UCLA or whoever, but can't because a coach has had them since 2005. I usually think in big picture mindset. I don't think there's one thing that could EVER be done that would make me say "screw HD I'm outta here". Which is why I think it's silly so many left during 3.0. It's still an awesome game. Makes no sense to me. People take it too serious)
2/20/2021 7:34 PM (edited)
Firings good. Arbitrary season limits bad.

Team construction and talent evaluation is by far the most important aspect of being successful IMO
2/20/2021 7:37 PM
I think the season limits would be a very bad idea. It’s often not just about the team itself, sometimes I want to stay on the same team in the same conference because of the other people there, and if I was forced to suddenly pick another team? That goes away too. It’s disrupting to the mini communities you establish.
2/20/2021 11:12 PM
Posted by a_in_the_b on 2/20/2021 11:12:00 PM (view original):
I think the season limits would be a very bad idea. It’s often not just about the team itself, sometimes I want to stay on the same team in the same conference because of the other people there, and if I was forced to suddenly pick another team? That goes away too. It’s disrupting to the mini communities you establish.
That's a very valid point as well. One thing that I DO enjoy a lot is playing along side my chosen conference mates. I do get that one
2/21/2021 12:08 PM
Whether it’s a world with a hard reset, or a coach career limit/reset, I think it should be limited to new worlds. Leave the existing worlds as they are for now. Over time, if the new format is wildly popular, you can gradually convert them maybe, with enough notice, but at least a few should always be held back as long term legacy worlds.
2/21/2021 1:46 PM
Posted by topdogggbm on 2/21/2021 12:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by a_in_the_b on 2/20/2021 11:12:00 PM (view original):
I think the season limits would be a very bad idea. It’s often not just about the team itself, sometimes I want to stay on the same team in the same conference because of the other people there, and if I was forced to suddenly pick another team? That goes away too. It’s disrupting to the mini communities you establish.
That's a very valid point as well. One thing that I DO enjoy a lot is playing along side my chosen conference mates. I do get that one
Basically, if I was an empty conference, I wouldn’t care that much which team I was playing as.
2/21/2021 2:14 PM
Posted by a_in_the_b on 2/20/2021 11:12:00 PM (view original):
I think the season limits would be a very bad idea. It’s often not just about the team itself, sometimes I want to stay on the same team in the same conference because of the other people there, and if I was forced to suddenly pick another team? That goes away too. It’s disrupting to the mini communities you establish.
The only limits I might support is a Coach 'Lifetime' scenario. What do I mean? You start your coaching career at a specific age (say 25) .. and there is a max limit on age where a coach has to retire (let that be random after say age 68 or so).

Every time you retire .. you start over, BUT with more initial prestige/experience .. and with the ability to qualify for more jobs.

Failing something like that (and even if that were implemented) .. firing for specific under performance reasons is as great.
2/22/2021 9:00 AM
Posted by shoe3 on 2/21/2021 1:46:00 PM (view original):
Whether it’s a world with a hard reset, or a coach career limit/reset, I think it should be limited to new worlds. Leave the existing worlds as they are for now. Over time, if the new format is wildly popular, you can gradually convert them maybe, with enough notice, but at least a few should always be held back as long term legacy worlds.
Well .. the problem w/ new worlds is, they cost money to run. More simulations probably means more servers to run them on (depending on how loaded the current hardware is) .. OR .. more database storage requirements, etc.

It would also require maintaining more active code bases of the game (ie .. current game, upgrades .. new version, upgrades). This costs more money to maintain.

I would love a couple new worlds. If they do it with limits or coach lifetimes .. I would give it a try.

2/22/2021 9:05 AM
I've chosen a hill to die on, and its permanent promises. Despite many valid arguments about under-seeded teams and the value of recruiting, I still think having promises extend to postseason and future seasons would be one of the best and easiest ways to make this game more dynamic. Imagine having to recruit with that rule. It adds a layer where you actually need to think about which recruits to offer promises and when.

The coaches who put the most effort into recruiting and roster management will be rewarded with better success. There will be much less "well I'll just offer 20 HV, 1 CV, promised start and 25 minutes, and see if I win a coin flip". With the elite teams not being able to offer every recruit a start and 20-25 minutes, the lower level P6 and mid-majors will have more shots at premier recruits.

If there are too many transfers, we could always adjust the fulfillment % needed from the current 80-90% to 70% or whatever make sense. But I do think that having a few more good transfers in RS2 would help with EE's, which benefits the top D1 schools.

I just feel like the current game's success is heavily predicated on winning coin flips. You go all-in on several recruits and wait for a coin flip. Sometimes you sign a few, sometimes you most or all, sometimes you lose them all. And your success is mostly based on the results of the random coin flips. I'd love to add some more strategy to the recruiting and roster management processes. I'd love to see the results for most coaches be more closely based on skill and not luck. And the reason I say "most coaches" is because there is definitely an elite group of coaches that have mastered the current system and will be successful either way. For the rest of us, its a chance to separate from the average coaches and earn a tangible reward for all the effort we put into HD.

As a quick aside, I stand by my statement that recruiting is 80% of this game, at least at the D1 level. Although I consider things like roster management and talent evaluation to be under the recruiting umbrella. There's only so much you can do with a poorly construction and/or talentless roster.
2/22/2021 10:17 AM (edited)
“With the elite teams not being able to offer every recruit a start and 20-25 minutes, the lower level P6 and mid-majors will have more shots at premier recruits.”

Very unlikely, in the long run. Look at it this way, when promises are widely used, it hurts high prestige teams. They have to withstand the brunt of benching higher quality players, they risk games and seeding because of promises. C+ teams are going to promise anyway - under the current parameters anyway, when they know they can promise next year’s crop the same. But if they *want to advance* they’re going to have to keep bringing in top talent every year, they can’t just stop with one class. If promises are made more punishing, and become less commonly used, this will strengthen high prestige teams. It will narrow the prestige window within which teams can effectively challenge for top recruits. It puts the middling P6 team in a position where it can’t challenge for that local 4-5 star big man, because it already has upperclassman promises out to a soph and junior at those frontcourt positions. Do you know who can offer a promise any year to those guys under “extended promises”?

A+ baseline teams with EE players projected at the top of the draft. They will happily gobble those players up every year without a second thought. Extended promises will be a boon for me at A+ UConn, but I don’t think it will be good for the game at all.

“I just feel like the current game's success is heavily predicated on winning coin flips.”

Coin flips are 50/50 propositions, which are quite rare in HD. Good teams are built by the good execution of good plans. The most successful HD coaches build their rosters based on some very well-thought-out long term strategies. That may be just going all-in on elite only talent, and taking walkons every year, saving up resources with extra scholarships; or it may be strategically using redshirts and other types of role players to supplement the top targets. I know of more than one good program that utilizes a strategy of trying to get to high consideration on as many top recruits as possible, rather than going “all-in” on any, as they’d rather take their chances with 10 25% battles, than 4 50% battles. There are lots of ways to be successful. Flipping coins isn’t really one, and the folks who talk about it that way don’t really understand the things they’re doing very well. They’re making choices at every level, and those choices all have broad consequences. Long term success in this game should be - and generally is, in most cases - a result of good understanding and management of those consequences.

“As a quick aside, I stand by my statement that recruiting is 80% of this game, at least at the D1 level. Although I consider things like roster management and talent evaluation to be under the recruiting umbrella. There's only so much you can do with a poorly construction and/or talentless roster.”

The last sentence is true, I don’t think anyone argues otherwise. But I think conceptually, you have it backwards. Recruiting falls under the talent evaluation umbrella. Recruiting, roster construction, and game management all rely heavily on how well one understands how to evaluate talent, as this HD system defines and utilizes it. That’s pretty much the whole game. There is some gamesmanship on all three levels, and on the recruiting end it’s resource management. Sure that’s important. But it’s not 80%, not remotely.

PS - I’m not trying to pick on you, mlitney, you just said it’s a hill you wanted to die on, and I take that as a challenge. ;)
2/22/2021 11:36 AM (edited)
Put it this way: if it was actually coin flips then the same people wouldn’t consistently come out on top.
2/22/2021 11:41 AM
Posted by shoe3 on 2/22/2021 11:36:00 AM (view original):
“With the elite teams not being able to offer every recruit a start and 20-25 minutes, the lower level P6 and mid-majors will have more shots at premier recruits.”

Very unlikely, in the long run. Look at it this way, when promises are widely used, it hurts high prestige teams. They have to withstand the brunt of benching higher quality players, they risk games and seeding because of promises. C+ teams are going to promise anyway - under the current parameters anyway, when they know they can promise next year’s crop the same. But if they *want to advance* they’re going to have to keep bringing in top talent every year, they can’t just stop with one class. If promises are made more punishing, and become less commonly used, this will strengthen high prestige teams. It will narrow the prestige window within which teams can effectively challenge for top recruits. It puts the middling P6 team in a position where it can’t challenge for that local 4-5 star big man, because it already has upperclassman promises out to a soph and junior at those frontcourt positions. Do you know who can offer a promise any year to those guys under “extended promises”?

A+ baseline teams with EE players projected at the top of the draft. They will happily gobble those players up every year without a second thought. Extended promises will be a boon for me at A+ UConn, but I don’t think it will be good for the game at all.

“I just feel like the current game's success is heavily predicated on winning coin flips.”

Coin flips are 50/50 propositions, which are quite rare in HD. Good teams are built by the good execution of good plans. The most successful HD coaches build their rosters based on some very well-thought-out long term strategies. That may be just going all-in on elite only talent, and taking walkons every year, saving up resources with extra scholarships; or it may be strategically using redshirts and other types of role players to supplement the top targets. I know of more than one good program that utilizes a strategy of trying to get to high consideration on as many top recruits as possible, rather than going “all-in” on any, as they’d rather take their chances with 10 25% battles, than 4 50% battles. There are lots of ways to be successful. Flipping coins isn’t really one, and the folks who talk about it that way don’t really understand the things they’re doing very well. They’re making choices at every level, and those choices all have broad consequences. Long term success in this game should be - and generally is, in most cases - a result of good understanding and management of those consequences.

“As a quick aside, I stand by my statement that recruiting is 80% of this game, at least at the D1 level. Although I consider things like roster management and talent evaluation to be under the recruiting umbrella. There's only so much you can do with a poorly construction and/or talentless roster.”

The last sentence is true, I don’t think anyone argues otherwise. But I think conceptually, you have it backwards. Recruiting falls under the talent evaluation umbrella. Recruiting, roster construction, and game management all rely heavily on how well one understands how to evaluate talent, as this HD system defines and utilizes it. That’s pretty much the whole game. There is some gamesmanship on all three levels, and on the recruiting end it’s resource management. Sure that’s important. But it’s not 80%, not remotely.

PS - I’m not trying to pick on you, mlitney, you just said it’s a hill you wanted to die on, and I take that as a challenge. ;)
I disagree with your argument that widely used promises hurt high prestige teams. If promises are equal, then the main determining factors are preferences and prestige. If the higher prestige team has decent preferences, then they will have quite the advantage. But you do have a valid point about using promises for EE replacement. Although that's always risk because sometimes EE's don't leave when you expect them to. I still feel like it gives us more choices/consequences, which make the game less cookie-cutter and more dynamic.

On your 2nd point, I added the caveat that there is definitely a group of elite coaches that don't need to rely on recruiting luck so I agree with you there. But I think that group is maybe 10% of the user base. When I said "coin flip", I didn't mean only the 50/50 odds. I guess dice rolls is a better nomenclature? Either way, 10 25% battles or 4 50% battles lead to the same thing... depending on a lot of luck to build a championship-level team. I just want to take some of the luck out of the equation and add some strategy-based results. You state that long-term success is a result of choices/consequences, which is exactly what extended promises would add more of.


And don't worry shoe, I don't take anything personally. I'm just determined to die a slow, painful death on this hill haha.

2/22/2021 12:15 PM (edited)
Hate the idea of permanent promises
2/22/2021 1:22 PM
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