I don't know, so I'll ask... what were the IQs for the Players (in that Defensive Set) that were Fouling?  Also, what was SPD/ATH/DEF for them?  Perhaps, as you said, they were actually 'stupid'... and if, due to all the fouls over the game, they were deep bench guys perhaps they weren't able to defend without fouling?  Again, I don't know but it could be worth checking out.

Posted by isack24 on 6/25/2010 4:04:00 PM (view original):
Well the whole thing is irrelevant.  It's not the press itself that caused backcourt fouls, it's the stupid people fouling.  The engine should absolutely account for how much time is left and whether anyone would EVER get close enough to foul in the backcourt up ten with under a minute.

And if you played 3-2 Zone at +5 when up 10 with one minute left, you would not even be in the back court to foul them .... and they would be less likely to hit the 3 point shot.

Do you play defenses you don't practice?

I do

Posted by isack24 on 6/25/2010 11:59:00 PM (view original):
Do you play defenses you don't practice?

I practice more than one defense. But especially if I practice the press, I would also practice either M2M or Zone too.  Because you do not want to Press at the end if games if you are winning.

  Dalter, let me ask (to gain some experience) this then.

  If you MAINLY run Press for your Defense, would you not want a 'fall back' defense for when you have a Late Lead?  The other options seem to be "Run Defense with No IQ" which seems like it would be ripe to allow a Late Rally... or Practice Secondary Defense, which means slightly less talented players.

  Now, my limited experience shows that many players have 'dead skills' or a few areas that practice just won't help "Hey Coach, maybe the time working on Johnny Utah's Free Throws could be used elsewhere, unless you can get something out of him".  Perhaps not 20 Minutes to M2M or Zone, but 15, maybe 10?  After all, you aren't looking for an A+ Effort, you just don't want an F on the Court. 

  I use 20 in Motiom, 20 in Zone and 130 in Player.  I have a few, due to those 'dead skills' at 0.  I could see, once GPA is up, trimming 5-10 minutes off of Study Hall and giving it to a Secondary Defense (Dimishing Returns says bumping a different ability over 30 may be less effective than 15 in a 2nd Defense).

  Why is this logic so flawed?

Posted by brrexkl on 6/26/2010 9:24:00 AM (view original):
  Dalter, let me ask (to gain some experience) this then.

  If you MAINLY run Press for your Defense, would you not want a 'fall back' defense for when you have a Late Lead?  The other options seem to be "Run Defense with No IQ" which seems like it would be ripe to allow a Late Rally... or Practice Secondary Defense, which means slightly less talented players.

  Now, my limited experience shows that many players have 'dead skills' or a few areas that practice just won't help "Hey Coach, maybe the time working on Johnny Utah's Free Throws could be used elsewhere, unless you can get something out of him".  Perhaps not 20 Minutes to M2M or Zone, but 15, maybe 10?  After all, you aren't looking for an A+ Effort, you just don't want an F on the Court. 

  I use 20 in Motiom, 20 in Zone and 130 in Player.  I have a few, due to those 'dead skills' at 0.  I could see, once GPA is up, trimming 5-10 minutes off of Study Hall and giving it to a Secondary Defense (Dimishing Returns says bumping a different ability over 30 may be less effective than 15 in a 2nd Defense).

  Why is this logic so flawed?

Absolutely not.

First, the days of players frequently capping out early in their careers are pretty much over with the new engine. So practice minutes are even more precious than before. There is absolutely no way it is worth devoting 15 minutes to another defense just to play it in the last couple minutes of games that you are winning.

First of all, it's just a bad use of practice minutes. Second, I'm not even so sure that the second defense with less practice time would be a better option than the press defense with more practice time (not to mention other mitigating factors, like you're presumably recruiting players whose skills fit your primary set)). This whole idea is based on the notion that somehow you shouldn't play the press in HD late with a lead, which is a dubious claim to begin with.

The whole point is that no matter how stupid the players are, college players are not going to foul four times in the backcourt with a lead in the final minute.  Never gonna happen.  The engine should account for having a lead late in the game, and going for steals less often.

I would agree with that. No team in the world that's winning by a handful of baskets with a minute or two left will be actively pressing, trapping and going for steals with their opponent running their halfcourt offense.

It's similar to what the engine already does automatically in the last minute or so when you're on the lead w. the ball, and they go into a four corners.

  Daalter, to that point:  This team did.  Why?  The Coach TOLD them to press with a lead in the final minutes.  All they did was EXECUTE this ORDER.  It is easy enough to tell the Engine to go Zone or Man in the last minutes with a lead of X.

  Those 4 Back Court Fouls?  They fall solely on the Coach.  Had he game planned differently his Players wouldn't have been ABLE to foul in the Back Court.

  Isack, I see in a way you responded to my question... but you didn't give any answers to it.  Did you have some guys out there (namely the ones fouling in the Back Court) that either (a) sucked so bad that Pressing was bound to lead to a foul or (b) were so stupid to realize fouling on the in-bounds was the worst thing they could do?  I only ask because there were so many fouls and foul outs that even back ups had to of been tired, so at the very end some really bad players could have been on the Court.

  I agree that IF YOU PRESS with a Late Lead the 'Press' should become more 'Conservative', only attempting to steal on the Passes by shooting the passing lanes.  Of course, we all agree that Pressing on EVERY POSSESION isn't realistic either, so this shouldn't really be expected to be done either.  We KNOW how the Press works on here.  Using it in the wrong Situations is only the fault of the Coach.

  Now Isack, if your guys were not retarded or horrible defenders or so tired as to be reaching because the feet wouldn't move... then we do have to question why the Back Court Fouls happened.  But what we DO know, they WOULDN'T have happened in a Zone.

Posted by dalter on 6/26/2010 9:04:00 AM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 6/26/2010 8:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by isack24 on 6/25/2010 11:59:00 PM (view original):
Do you play defenses you don't practice?

I practice more than one defense. But especially if I practice the press, I would also practice either M2M or Zone too.  Because you do not want to Press at the end if games if you are winning.

That is a terrible rationale for devoting extremely valuable practice time somewhere else. Brutal.

And that's why, while you may be a genius, Nobel-winning rocket scientist, there's a lot you still don't get about HD.

Dalter ... here is a quote for you.

Wait a few months ... I will be beating you at HD.  That is a guarantee.

Why a few months, sweetheart? Why not now? It seems like you're already an expert, no?

How much should we wager on this little guarantee of yours?

Posted by brrexkl on 6/26/2010 1:45:00 PM (view original):
  Daalter, to that point:  This team did.  Why?  The Coach TOLD them to press with a lead in the final minutes.  All they did was EXECUTE this ORDER.  It is easy enough to tell the Engine to go Zone or Man in the last minutes with a lead of X.

  Those 4 Back Court Fouls?  They fall solely on the Coach.  Had he game planned differently his Players wouldn't have been ABLE to foul in the Back Court.

  Isack, I see in a way you responded to my question... but you didn't give any answers to it.  Did you have some guys out there (namely the ones fouling in the Back Court) that either (a) sucked so bad that Pressing was bound to lead to a foul or (b) were so stupid to realize fouling on the in-bounds was the worst thing they could do?  I only ask because there were so many fouls and foul outs that even back ups had to of been tired, so at the very end some really bad players could have been on the Court.

  I agree that IF YOU PRESS with a Late Lead the 'Press' should become more 'Conservative', only attempting to steal on the Passes by shooting the passing lanes.  Of course, we all agree that Pressing on EVERY POSSESION isn't realistic either, so this shouldn't really be expected to be done either.  We KNOW how the Press works on here.  Using it in the wrong Situations is only the fault of the Coach.

  Now Isack, if your guys were not retarded or horrible defenders or so tired as to be reaching because the feet wouldn't move... then we do have to question why the Back Court Fouls happened.  But what we DO know, they WOULDN'T have happened in a Zone.

Wasn't my team fouling in the backcourt.

My team was being fouled.

My answer will the same no matter what question you ask: no team, even a pressing team, will reach in the backcourt up ten with under a minute.  No team, no player, period.            

Was the Fouling Team in the Press?  If so, the way to avoid that would be by not running the Press. 

Now, if you are told to press... what are you going to do?  Stand there and let the guy go by you, or make a play on the ball?  The Coach said Press... so the kid Pressed, badly, and fouled.  The reason no one does this in real life is NO ONE PRESSES WITH THE LEAD IN REAL LIFE.  So no one has the chance IN RL to reach in the back court.

Again, those 4 Fouls fall on whoever had their team in the Press (lead or no lead).  Game Plan Error.