2010-11 Player release Topic

Here's one more vote for creating the needed All-Defensive teams, so that players get the appropriate credit to their D rating.  As already mentioned, other older, unrecorded stats are "estimated", so why not this?

Also, I too have pushed variable size Leagues for a long time, so vote for that as well.  (WIS is costing itself a lot of $ with the lack of this).
4/20/2011 8:09 AM

Here is my list of Devensive Players of the Year (DPOY from here on) and First and Second Team for the 51-52 season through 67-68.  I used the What if Sports stats and ratings in order to keep the sanctity of the sim.  While Bill Russell IRL would win more DPOY's the stats bare that Wilt would win more titles if this was based purely on stats.  Players were select by position so as to stop there from being 10 PF's and C's on the list, and the only players eligible were players that played at least 1800 mins and the players were only eligible at their listed position (so even though Russell is 100% at PF he is only eligible at C).

Seble, feel free to use this list if it is ok with everyone else here.

Here is the list:

All-Defensive Teams

51-52

First Team
George Mikan DPOY
Ed Macauley
Paul Arizin
Bob Cousy
Phillip Andrew
Second Team
Larry Foust
Dolph Schayes
Bobby Wanzer
James Pollard
Bob Davies
52-53
First Team
George Mikan DPOY
Ed Macauley
Bob Cousy
Phillip Andrew
Leo Barnhorst
Second Team
Neil Johnston
Dolph Schayes
Fred Schaus
Bill Sharman
George King 
53-54
First Team
Ray Felix DPOY
Ed Macauley
Bob Cousy
Paul Seymour
James Pollard
Second Team
Larry Foust
Harry Gallatin
Bobby Wanzer
Phillip Andrew
Wally Osterkorn
54-55
First Team
Bob Pettit DPOY
Paul Arizin
Bob Cousy
Dolph Schayes
Paul Seymour
Second Team
Ray Felix
Ed Macauley
Frank Selvy
Slater Martin
Bill Sharman
55-56
First Team
Bob Pettit DPOY
Paul Arizin
Jack Coleman
Bob Cousy
Tom Gola
Second Team
Maurice Stokes
George Yardley
Bill Sharman
Jack George
Dolph Schayes
56-57
First Team
Bill Russell DPOY
Ed Macauley
George Yardley
Bob Cousy
Bill Sharman
Second Team
Maurice Stokes
Dolph Schayes
Ken Sears
Dick Garmaker
Caul Braun
57-58
First Team
Bill Russell DPOY
Bob Pettit
Cliff Hagan
Bob Cousy
Tom Gola
Second Team
Clyde Lovellette
Maurice Stokes
Willie Naulls
Richie Guerin
George King
58-59
First Team
Bill Russell DPOY
Bob Pettit
Elgin Baylor
Tom Gola
Bob Cousy
Second Team
Walt Dukes
Cliff Hagan
Phil Jordon
Dick McGuire
Frank Ramsey 
59-60
First Team
Wilt Chamberlain DPOY
Bob Pettit
Elgin Baylor
Richie Guerin
Bob Cousy
Second Team
Bill Russell
Cliff Hagan
Rudy Larusso
Tom Gola
Guy Rodgers
60-61
First Team
Wilt Chamberlain DPOY
Elgin Baylor
Bob Pettit
Oscar Robertson
Richie Guerin
Second Team
Bill Russell
Jerry West
Rudy Larusso
Tom Gola
Willie Naulls 
61-62
First Team
Wilt Chamberlain DPOY
Oscar Robertson
Bob Pettit
Elgin Baylor
Sam Jones
Second Team
Bill Russell
Jerry West
Satch Sanders
Rudy Larusso
Hal Greer
62-63
First Team
Wilt Chamberlain DPOY
Oscar Robertson
John Havilcek
Sam Jones
Dave DeBusschere
Second Team
Bill Russell
Bob Pettit
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Hal Greer 
63-64
First Team
Wilt Chamberlain DPOY
Oscar Robertson
John Havlicek
Gus Johnson
Sam Jones
Second Team
Bill Russell
Jerry West
Nate Thurmond
Elgin Baylor
Tom Gola
64-65
First Team
Wilt Chamberlain DPOY
Oscar Robertson
Nate Thurmond
Sam Jones
Elgin Baylor
Second Team
Bill Russell
Jerry West
Dave DeBusschere
John Havlicek
Guy Rodgers 
65-66
First Team
Wilt Chamberlain DPOY
Oscar Robertson
Dave DeBusschere
John Havlicek
Dick Van Arsdale
Second Team
Bill Russell
Willis Reed
Jerry West
Billy Cunningham
Sam Jones
66-67
First Team
Wilt Chamberlain DPOY
Jerry West
Willis Reed
Jerry Sloan
John Havlicek
Second Team
Bill Russell
Dave DeBusschere
Oscar Robertson
Dick Van Arsdale
Gus Johnson
67-68
First Team
Wilt Chamberlain DPOY
Dave Debusschere
John Havlicek
Jerry Sloan
Jerry West
Second Team
Bill Russell
Willis Reed
Oscar Robertson
Gus Johnson
Dick Van Arsdale
4/20/2011 10:57 AM
Excellent list malone!!  Book it Seble!

I would have to add that according to bball stats, Bill lead the league in Def win shares every year from 57 to 68.   56 (3rd) and '67 (2nd).  so maybe he gets a DPOY here and there.

In any case, Wilt and Bill should be above 95 every year of their prime and possibly their careers.


4/20/2011 12:54 PM
I applaud your effort Malone because I couldn't have come up with such an exhaustive list. It's doubtful that Sam Jones would have been more celebrated defensively than KC Jones. KC's NBA.com bio says the following:

Jones proved to be a talented, if unspectacular, floor leader. He directed the offense and distributed the ball well, placing among the league leaders in assists. (He ranks seventh among the Celtics' career leaders in assists with 2,908.) Most importantly, his defense regularly shackled stars such as the Los Angeles Lakers' Jerry West and the Cincinnati Royals' Oscar Robertson. Jones would have been a shoo-in for the NBA All-Defensive Team, but the award didn't come into existence until the 1968-69 season, two years after Jones had retired.

I'm also skeptical about The Big O over Jerry West for 1st & Wilt over Russell & Thurmond. The Big O & West came in & retired at the same time but West made 5 All-Defensive teams while The Big O made none. The following is excerpted from Thurmond's NBA.com bio:

Some basketball observers have suggested that the 6-11 Thurmond provided the best mix of offense and defense in basketball history. Many say that his defense was better than Chamberlain's, and that his offense was better than Bill Russell's.

Both Abdul-Jabbar and Chamberlain have gone on record saying they felt Thurmond was their toughest adversary. "He plays me better than anybody ever has," Abdul-Jabbar told Basketball Digest when he was in his prime. "He's tall, has real long arms, and most of all he's agile and strong." In an article in Sport, Abdul-Jabbar also said, "When I score on Nate, I know I've done something. He sweats and he wants you to sweat, too."

In Basketball Digest, former teammate Walt Hazzard said: As for blocking shots, I've seen guys get offensive rebounds and then go back 15 feet to make sure they can get a shot off. They know Nate is there."
 

4/20/2011 1:35 PM
clintgreely please read what I said before...I used wis stats and rankings in order to keep with the sanctity of the sim. I may argue Sam vs. KC Jones, but no way is Oscar better than West, but the sim is giving better ratings and stats to the big o so that is how I got what I got without destroying the entire defensive rating system, which I am not against, but this would make an easy fix.
4/20/2011 2:10 PM
Easy fixes = never happen...
4/20/2011 2:58 PM

let me 'fix' that for you

"fixes = never happen" .

4/21/2011 11:31 PM
Seble are you there?  We asked a few questions that we would please like an answer to
4/22/2011 12:12 AM
Dave's not here...
4/22/2011 1:57 PM
Ray's gone bye-bye, Egon - what have you got left?

Sorry Venkman I'm terrified beyond capacity for rational thought
4/22/2011 1:59 PM
Why not use one of the many places that has something like defensive win shares and use that for defensive ratings more heavily than blocks or steals? Steals in particular aren't exactly a good measure of who holds the defense to a low effective field goal percent (a lot of guys who are high in steals were notoriously bad at just gambling and going for steals at the expense of staying in front of their man - like Iverson).
4/22/2011 5:19 PM
Posted by detlef on 4/22/2011 5:19:00 PM (view original):
Why not use one of the many places that has something like defensive win shares and use that for defensive ratings more heavily than blocks or steals? Steals in particular aren't exactly a good measure of who holds the defense to a low effective field goal percent (a lot of guys who are high in steals were notoriously bad at just gambling and going for steals at the expense of staying in front of their man - like Iverson).
Using defensive win shares would be one way to help estimate defensive ratings for players in the 50's and 60's.  http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html  Bill Russell has the 6 highest single season totals for defensive win shares according to basketball-reference.
4/22/2011 5:32 PM
Janine, someone with your qualifications would have no trouble finding a top flight job in either the food service or housekeeping industries
4/22/2011 7:45 PM
Posted by ncmusician_7 on 4/22/2011 5:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by detlef on 4/22/2011 5:19:00 PM (view original):
Why not use one of the many places that has something like defensive win shares and use that for defensive ratings more heavily than blocks or steals? Steals in particular aren't exactly a good measure of who holds the defense to a low effective field goal percent (a lot of guys who are high in steals were notoriously bad at just gambling and going for steals at the expense of staying in front of their man - like Iverson).
Using defensive win shares would be one way to help estimate defensive ratings for players in the 50's and 60's.  http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html  Bill Russell has the 6 highest single season totals for defensive win shares according to basketball-reference.
Agree with this wholeheartedly!!
4/22/2011 7:51 PM
Posted by slymonium on 4/22/2011 7:45:00 PM (view original):
Janine, someone with your qualifications would have no trouble finding a top flight job in either the food service or housekeeping industries
I think I know what Im going to watch after the games tonight
4/22/2011 8:57 PM
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