FWIW Mike, I don't expect you to see results unless you take my whole advice as a package and implement it. Picking and choosing certain bits and then not adjusting your distro as advised won't work. I totally understand if you don't want to rearrange your whole program based on some dudes advice online, but at the same time I was kind of hoping you would so I could see the outcome.

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 12/28/2016 3:46:00 PM (view original):
Mikie-

good

There is more than one way to have a successful team but all of those ways include at least a reasonably high ATH and DEF ratings, which for D3 would be above 50. I can go more in depth if you want.

For LP the difference between 1 and 50 is slight, he might shoot a little bit better. But if instead of getting a 40 LP guard you got a guard with 1 LP but had 20 or even just 10 more BH, ATH, or SPD, he would shoot a lot better. Unless your guard has like 70+ it's not going to make that much of a difference, and even so 20 ATH would do so much more.

Even if their individual ratings haven't increased that much since last season their IQ has, which makes a huge difference.

Other things impact FG% such as who is guarding them, the passer rating of who is passing to them, the team passing rating, amount of shots taken, the situation of the score, tempo, etc. You can't just state that this guy is better than that guy because you don't know what that guy would have done if put in the same situation. Your also only a few games into the season, one game could dramatically spike one players stats. If you flip a coin 10 times you might get 8 heads, but if you flip a coin 1000 times it will be really close to 500 heads.

I disagree with most of this. You do not need high ath and def to win. They certainly don't hurt but isn't required. I took my Brooklyn team to the FF with like a team def rating in the upper 30s.

also, the low post thing isn't right. There is a huuuuge difference between a 1 LP and a 45 LP.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 12/29/2016 5:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 12/28/2016 3:46:00 PM (view original):
Mikie-

good

There is more than one way to have a successful team but all of those ways include at least a reasonably high ATH and DEF ratings, which for D3 would be above 50. I can go more in depth if you want.

For LP the difference between 1 and 50 is slight, he might shoot a little bit better. But if instead of getting a 40 LP guard you got a guard with 1 LP but had 20 or even just 10 more BH, ATH, or SPD, he would shoot a lot better. Unless your guard has like 70+ it's not going to make that much of a difference, and even so 20 ATH would do so much more.

Even if their individual ratings haven't increased that much since last season their IQ has, which makes a huge difference.

Other things impact FG% such as who is guarding them, the passer rating of who is passing to them, the team passing rating, amount of shots taken, the situation of the score, tempo, etc. You can't just state that this guy is better than that guy because you don't know what that guy would have done if put in the same situation. Your also only a few games into the season, one game could dramatically spike one players stats. If you flip a coin 10 times you might get 8 heads, but if you flip a coin 1000 times it will be really close to 500 heads.

I disagree with most of this. You do not need high ath and def to win. They certainly don't hurt but isn't required. I took my Brooklyn team to the FF with like a team def rating in the upper 30s.

also, the low post thing isn't right. There is a huuuuge difference between a 1 LP and a 45 LP.

In my experience a guard with wicked low LP raiting shoots about the same from inside the arc as a guard with 50 LP rating. Totally different for bigs however.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 12/29/2016 5:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 12/28/2016 3:46:00 PM (view original):
Mikie-

good

There is more than one way to have a successful team but all of those ways include at least a reasonably high ATH and DEF ratings, which for D3 would be above 50. I can go more in depth if you want.

For LP the difference between 1 and 50 is slight, he might shoot a little bit better. But if instead of getting a 40 LP guard you got a guard with 1 LP but had 20 or even just 10 more BH, ATH, or SPD, he would shoot a lot better. Unless your guard has like 70+ it's not going to make that much of a difference, and even so 20 ATH would do so much more.

Even if their individual ratings haven't increased that much since last season their IQ has, which makes a huge difference.

Other things impact FG% such as who is guarding them, the passer rating of who is passing to them, the team passing rating, amount of shots taken, the situation of the score, tempo, etc. You can't just state that this guy is better than that guy because you don't know what that guy would have done if put in the same situation. Your also only a few games into the season, one game could dramatically spike one players stats. If you flip a coin 10 times you might get 8 heads, but if you flip a coin 1000 times it will be really close to 500 heads.

I disagree with most of this. You do not need high ath and def to win. They certainly don't hurt but isn't required. I took my Brooklyn team to the FF with like a team def rating in the upper 30s.

also, the low post thing isn't right. There is a huuuuge difference between a 1 LP and a 45 LP.

Wow, you wouldn't happen to have a way to show me what that team looked like would you? I would be interested in what you looked for in your players instead. I had never heard of a top team that did not have a decent Ath/Def ratings before yours. That being said, that is just one team, and i'm sure you had a whole scheme to compensate for that that was complex. That kind of scheme would take a superior knowledge of the game, so Mike, i still cannot stress the importance of Ath/Def, at least for the time being.

I meant only for guards, not for bigs. I have noticed that the main importance on inside shooting for guards is mainlyAth, BH, and Spd.

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 12/29/2016 5:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 12/29/2016 5:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 12/28/2016 3:46:00 PM (view original):
Mikie-

good

There is more than one way to have a successful team but all of those ways include at least a reasonably high ATH and DEF ratings, which for D3 would be above 50. I can go more in depth if you want.

For LP the difference between 1 and 50 is slight, he might shoot a little bit better. But if instead of getting a 40 LP guard you got a guard with 1 LP but had 20 or even just 10 more BH, ATH, or SPD, he would shoot a lot better. Unless your guard has like 70+ it's not going to make that much of a difference, and even so 20 ATH would do so much more.

Even if their individual ratings haven't increased that much since last season their IQ has, which makes a huge difference.

Other things impact FG% such as who is guarding them, the passer rating of who is passing to them, the team passing rating, amount of shots taken, the situation of the score, tempo, etc. You can't just state that this guy is better than that guy because you don't know what that guy would have done if put in the same situation. Your also only a few games into the season, one game could dramatically spike one players stats. If you flip a coin 10 times you might get 8 heads, but if you flip a coin 1000 times it will be really close to 500 heads.

I disagree with most of this. You do not need high ath and def to win. They certainly don't hurt but isn't required. I took my Brooklyn team to the FF with like a team def rating in the upper 30s.

also, the low post thing isn't right. There is a huuuuge difference between a 1 LP and a 45 LP.

Wow, you wouldn't happen to have a way to show me what that team looked like would you? I would be interested in what you looked for in your players instead. I had never heard of a top team that did not have a decent Ath/Def ratings before yours. That being said, that is just one team, and i'm sure you had a whole scheme to compensate for that that was complex. That kind of scheme would take a superior knowledge of the game, so Mike, i still cannot stress the importance of Ath/Def, at least for the time being.

I meant only for guards, not for bigs. I have noticed that the main importance on inside shooting for guards is mainlyAth, BH, and Spd.

I agree with TJ for the most part. I thought I had some good CNU teams that had average defensive ratings so I went back and took a look. I was running FB/Press with these teams so averaging the ratings is fair I think since all 12 of my guys played 10+ mpg.

Season 95 - Title Game
http://imgur.com/XF7vZz0

Avg ath/def is 57/51.

Season 96 - FF
http://imgur.com/NUNZkiX

Avg ath/def is 55/46. I think 46 average defense is pretty damn low for a FF team. Look at my guards. Most of them have sh*t defense.

I remember when recruiting these teams that I was having trouble getting really good ath/def so I focused on Spd and solid reb at several positions. I also went for Stamina since I ran FB/Press and I think that's an overlooked attribute.

Anyway, not saying you do or don't need ath/def. They are definitely important, for sure. But there are lots of ways to win.

Edit - here's another CNU team running FB/Press that did well with just OK defense.

Season 98- FF
http://imgur.com/JO2l5UC

Average ath/def - 53/49

Keep in mind, when you guys are saying average defense, what did the starters look like and what tempo were you running? If you had solid defensive starters and crap backups, your average will suck, but if those starters stay on the court more, because you're playing them at higher fatigue levels and maybe running a slowdown, those backups aren't as much of a factor and that average low defense is not what you are putting on the court.

With that said, I've had success with low defenders on the team (1 or 2 starting, or maybe a few bench guys), but I've never had a deep run with my starters all with low defense. I did that for a long time where I had elite offensive starters and depth with bad defense/Ath and I rarely got past the 2nd round. Once I put more focus on the Ath and Def, my results improved significantly.

At DIII I had a solid team with 1 pg who had single digit Ath and less than 20 defense, but he was elite in all the offensive categories (80-90s Spd/Per/BH/Pass). This team made the title game and only lost by 2. Everyone else had solid Def/Ath.

Thanks, trentonjoe/benis. I know one would love to have very high ATH/DEF but I was almost certain it wasn't the only way to win. As previously mentioned, for every opinion on how the game "must" be played, I knew there was likely a differing opinion.

Posted by snafu4u on 12/29/2016 4:53:00 PM (view original):
FWIW Mike, I don't expect you to see results unless you take my whole advice as a package and implement it. Picking and choosing certain bits and then not adjusting your distro as advised won't work. I totally understand if you don't want to rearrange your whole program based on some dudes advice online, but at the same time I was kind of hoping you would so I could see the outcome.

I know you'd like that but then that's just you running my team. That's not a whole lot of fun for me. I'm sure you understand. That said, Franklin got another start and both Franklin/Duncan got 18 minutes. We won. I won't give them credit for that but they did play well.

Franklin: 2-4 FG, 3 REB, 1 STEAL, 6 PTS and 0 TO
Duncan: 3-4 FG, 1-1 3PT, 5 REB, 1 ASST, 1 TO and 9 PTS

I also played 3-2 and -5 D(that -5 is you. I'd been very reluctant to go more than -3).

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/30/2016 7:16:00 AM (view original):

Posted by snafu4u on 12/29/2016 4:53:00 PM (view original):
FWIW Mike, I don't expect you to see results unless you take my whole advice as a package and implement it. Picking and choosing certain bits and then not adjusting your distro as advised won't work. I totally understand if you don't want to rearrange your whole program based on some dudes advice online, but at the same time I was kind of hoping you would so I could see the outcome.

I know you'd like that but then that's just you running my team. That's not a whole lot of fun for me. I'm sure you understand. That said, Franklin got another start and both Franklin/Duncan got 18 minutes. We won. I won't give them credit for that but they did play well.

Franklin: 2-4 FG, 3 REB, 1 STEAL, 6 PTS and 0 TO
Duncan: 3-4 FG, 1-1 3PT, 5 REB, 1 ASST, 1 TO and 9 PTS

I also played 3-2 and -5 D(that -5 is you. I'd been very reluctant to go more than -3).

Good to see you get a couple wins!

Posted by poncho0091 on 12/30/2016 6:36:00 AM (view original):
Keep in mind, when you guys are saying average defense, what did the starters look like and what tempo were you running? If you had solid defensive starters and crap backups, your average will suck, but if those starters stay on the court more, because you're playing them at higher fatigue levels and maybe running a slowdown, those backups aren't as much of a factor and that average low defense is not what you are putting on the court.

With that said, I've had success with low defenders on the team (1 or 2 starting, or maybe a few bench guys), but I've never had a deep run with my starters all with low defense. I did that for a long time where I had elite offensive starters and depth with bad defense/Ath and I rarely got past the 2nd round. Once I put more focus on the Ath and Def, my results improved significantly.

At DIII I had a solid team with 1 pg who had single digit Ath and less than 20 defense, but he was elite in all the offensive categories (80-90s Spd/Per/BH/Pass). This team made the title game and only lost by 2. Everyone else had solid Def/Ath.

Yeah that's a great point about running slowdown and having weak defenders play fewer minutes.

In my case, I was playing FB so I couldn't go slowdown. I was actually running uptempo most of the season. I had some weak defenders on my team and some strong defenders. I figure as long as my weak defenders are giving me a boost on offense then they're worth it. I don't intentionally ignore defense or anything but that's just how these teams shaped out.

Posted by snafu4u on 12/30/2016 8:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/30/2016 7:16:00 AM (view original):

Posted by snafu4u on 12/29/2016 4:53:00 PM (view original):
FWIW Mike, I don't expect you to see results unless you take my whole advice as a package and implement it. Picking and choosing certain bits and then not adjusting your distro as advised won't work. I totally understand if you don't want to rearrange your whole program based on some dudes advice online, but at the same time I was kind of hoping you would so I could see the outcome.

I know you'd like that but then that's just you running my team. That's not a whole lot of fun for me. I'm sure you understand. That said, Franklin got another start and both Franklin/Duncan got 18 minutes. We won. I won't give them credit for that but they did play well.

Franklin: 2-4 FG, 3 REB, 1 STEAL, 6 PTS and 0 TO
Duncan: 3-4 FG, 1-1 3PT, 5 REB, 1 ASST, 1 TO and 9 PTS

I also played 3-2 and -5 D(that -5 is you. I'd been very reluctant to go more than -3).

Good to see you get a couple wins!

Visovsky is still chuckin' 'em up. I'm not sure why.

Franklin/Duncan were at 10 and, as you can see, took 4 shots each.
Visovsky was 5 and took 8(20m).
Davin was at 25 and took 8(24m).

I know you're a 0-6 dist kinda guy but 25 v 5 should produce more shots as I see it.

How is Visovsky compared to other people coming off the bench distro wise? If he is coming into the game with a bunch of other backups set at or below him, he will take more shots than if he was on the court with the starters because his relative distribution would be higher. There are also random wierd nights. I once had a starter set at 10 (next closest player was at 4) play 30 minutes and only attempt 1 shot. I opened a ticket asking how that was possible and the response from CS was basically "these things can happen."

In last night's game, I had the following:
Davin-25
Snyder, Harris, Franklin, Pritts, Duncan-10
Zeier, Visovsky, Grinstead-5
Wagner, Larsen-0

I need to check who was on the court when he shot but he didn't spend much time with the 0-5 guys. That said, that's why I need to check. He may have flung up most of them during those minutes.

Mystery solved. I don't think he took a shot with Davin on the floor but he was putting them up with Grinstead and Wagner out there. And he took a fullcourt shot at the end of the 1st half.

Tonight will be interesting. I've set it up so he shouldn't be on the floor without a 20-25 out there too.

Posted by Benis on 12/29/2016 6:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 12/29/2016 5:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 12/29/2016 5:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 12/28/2016 3:46:00 PM (view original):
Mikie-

good

There is more than one way to have a successful team but all of those ways include at least a reasonably high ATH and DEF ratings, which for D3 would be above 50. I can go more in depth if you want.

For LP the difference between 1 and 50 is slight, he might shoot a little bit better. But if instead of getting a 40 LP guard you got a guard with 1 LP but had 20 or even just 10 more BH, ATH, or SPD, he would shoot a lot better. Unless your guard has like 70+ it's not going to make that much of a difference, and even so 20 ATH would do so much more.

Even if their individual ratings haven't increased that much since last season their IQ has, which makes a huge difference.

Other things impact FG% such as who is guarding them, the passer rating of who is passing to them, the team passing rating, amount of shots taken, the situation of the score, tempo, etc. You can't just state that this guy is better than that guy because you don't know what that guy would have done if put in the same situation. Your also only a few games into the season, one game could dramatically spike one players stats. If you flip a coin 10 times you might get 8 heads, but if you flip a coin 1000 times it will be really close to 500 heads.

I disagree with most of this. You do not need high ath and def to win. They certainly don't hurt but isn't required. I took my Brooklyn team to the FF with like a team def rating in the upper 30s.

also, the low post thing isn't right. There is a huuuuge difference between a 1 LP and a 45 LP.

Wow, you wouldn't happen to have a way to show me what that team looked like would you? I would be interested in what you looked for in your players instead. I had never heard of a top team that did not have a decent Ath/Def ratings before yours. That being said, that is just one team, and i'm sure you had a whole scheme to compensate for that that was complex. That kind of scheme would take a superior knowledge of the game, so Mike, i still cannot stress the importance of Ath/Def, at least for the time being.

I meant only for guards, not for bigs. I have noticed that the main importance on inside shooting for guards is mainlyAth, BH, and Spd.

I agree with TJ for the most part. I thought I had some good CNU teams that had average defensive ratings so I went back and took a look. I was running FB/Press with these teams so averaging the ratings is fair I think since all 12 of my guys played 10+ mpg.

Season 95 - Title Game
http://imgur.com/XF7vZz0

Avg ath/def is 57/51.

Season 96 - FF
http://imgur.com/NUNZkiX

Avg ath/def is 55/46. I think 46 average defense is pretty damn low for a FF team. Look at my guards. Most of them have sh*t defense.

I remember when recruiting these teams that I was having trouble getting really good ath/def so I focused on Spd and solid reb at several positions. I also went for Stamina since I ran FB/Press and I think that's an overlooked attribute.

Anyway, not saying you do or don't need ath/def. They are definitely important, for sure. But there are lots of ways to win.

Edit - here's another CNU team running FB/Press that did well with just OK defense.

Season 98- FF
http://imgur.com/JO2l5UC

Average ath/def - 53/49

I consider that to be decent ATH/Def ratings for D3. TJs on the other hand is not, so that would be interesting to see.