Bruce - I really like your stuff.
I actually did not embellish that verse intentionally.
I thought I had read that before.

Please write about the cutting off of the ear by Peter.

Posted by bruceleefan on 7/13/2022 5:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jetson21 on 7/13/2022 11:07:00 AM (view original):
And to put it in another way close to 6
billion people do not believe in the divinity of Jesus.
Explain that.

But it does prevent over crowding in Heaven.

It is a logical fallacy to point to the # of folks who believe in X as having any bearing on the truth or legitimacy of X.

I was totally tongue in cheek on this one as I am a lot of the time.

If I am wrong about this please tell me because this is interesting.

When Jesus is on the cross one of the criminals next to him was named Barabas which in Greek means son of the father and Jesus is called Son of the father.

I think that is fascinating.

I don’t remember the first name of Barabas but l think his first name was also Jesus.

Posted by Jetson21 on 7/13/2022 6:24:00 PM (view original):
If I am wrong about this please tell me because this is interesting.

When Jesus is on the cross one of the criminals next to him was named Barabas which in Greek means son of the father and Jesus is called Son of the father.

I think that is fascinating.

I don’t remember the first name of Barabas but l think his first name was also Jesus.

His name was absolutely Jesus Barabus.

He was NOT one of the 2 fellows on the cross, but rather he was a very notorious prisoner (Matthew's account) who (best we can make out) killed a Roman soldier or soldiers during a rebellion against Roman authorities. In Mark he references that Barabas was in prison with other rebels who committed murder during "the insurrection".

The importance of Barabas is that there was a tradition in the form of a customary pardon of one Jewish prisoner before the feast of Passover.

Fear of executing (what Roman authorities, especially Pontius Pilot thought was) an innocent man in Jesus the Savior, they brought the two Jesus's out to allow the "people" to choose which to pardon and which to execute. Fully expecting the people would never wish that Barabas be pardoned, as his actions were antithesis of Jewish law and typical practice.

The significance is that everyone knew Barabas was guilty under Roman law. He participated in sedition and committed murder during the process. He is the "poster child" for Jewish nationalism and manliness having stood up against the oppressive Roman rule. While Jesus, The Christ, called for meekness, and submitting to their Earthly rulers. It is a very apt analogy of serving of self interest vs. serving of Godly interest. Jesus, the Christ, demanded introspective examination, expanding the Ten Commandments to not just actions that violated, but the condition of the heart which precedes the physical action.

Matthew's gospel quotes Jesus thusly:

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of

old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh

on a woman to lust after her hath committed

adultery with her already in his heart.

Likewise, concerning the commandment "Thou shalt not commit murder":

²¹ “You have heard that it was said to those ^[a]of old, ^(B)‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ ²² But I say to you that ^(C)whoever is angry with his brother ^[b]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

By this time the Jewish leaders had burdened their flock with a ridiculous amount of tedious observances, not keeping with the spirit or intent of The Law. One example being the admonishion against "working on The Sabbath" had devolved to the point that many Jewish leaders convinced their people that something as innocent as wearing a pin on their clothing was, in fact, "working on the Sabbath". Their reasoning was because it caused the physical body to carry more weight than necessary. An obvious perversion of the intent.

So the average Jew, and especially Jewish leaders didn't appreciate Jesus admonishing their vain "observances" and calling instead for introspective examination of the condition of their hearts and minds instead.

They were as disgusting as the mindset we see in immoral lawyers. Skirting responsibility for their thoughts and hearts by rigorous exploitation of The Law.

Posted by Jetson21 on 7/13/2022 11:07:00 AM (view original):
And to put it in another way close to 6
billion people do not believe in the divinity of Jesus.
Explain that.

But it does prevent over crowding in Heaven.

That's EASY. They don't believe in Jesus' divinity. Y? Because they choose not to. The bible tells us this:

¹³Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: ¹⁴Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

People CHOOSE to reject Christ, just as many of you have. For eg:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

It’s been an interesting thread so far. Like the discussion parts a lot more than just the bickering parts though. I will keep in touch for more interesting conversation parts.

Posted by bruceleefan on 7/13/2022 9:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jetson21 on 7/13/2022 6:24:00 PM (view original):
If I am wrong about this please tell me because this is interesting.

When Jesus is on the cross one of the criminals next to him was named Barabas which in Greek means son of the father and Jesus is called Son of the father.

I think that is fascinating.

I don’t remember the first name of Barabas but l think his first name was also Jesus.

His name was absolutely Jesus Barabus.

He was NOT one of the 2 fellows on the cross, but rather he was a very notorious prisoner (Matthew's account) who (best we can make out) killed a Roman soldier or soldiers during a rebellion against Roman authorities. In Mark he references that Barabas was in prison with other rebels who committed murder during "the insurrection".

The importance of Barabas is that there was a tradition in the form of a customary pardon of one Jewish prisoner before the feast of Passover.

Fear of executing (what Roman authorities, especially Pontius Pilot thought was) an innocent man in Jesus the Savior, they brought the two Jesus's out to allow the "people" to choose which to pardon and which to execute. Fully expecting the people would never wish that Barabas be pardoned, as his actions were antithesis of Jewish law and typical practice.

The significance is that everyone knew Barabas was guilty under Roman law. He participated in sedition and committed murder during the process. He is the "poster child" for Jewish nationalism and manliness having stood up against the oppressive Roman rule. While Jesus, The Christ, called for meekness, and submitting to their Earthly rulers. It is a very apt analogy of serving of self interest vs. serving of Godly interest. Jesus, the Christ, demanded introspective examination, expanding the Ten Commandments to not just actions that violated, but the condition of the heart which precedes the physical action.

Matthew's gospel quotes Jesus thusly:

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of

old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh

on a woman to lust after her hath committed

adultery with her already in his heart.

Likewise, concerning the commandment "Thou shalt not commit murder":

²¹ “You have heard that it was said to those ^[a]of old, ^(B)‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ ²² But I say to you that ^(C)whoever is angry with his brother ^[b]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

By this time the Jewish leaders had burdened their flock with a ridiculous amount of tedious observances, not keeping with the spirit or intent of The Law. One example being the admonishion against "working on The Sabbath" had devolved to the point that many Jewish leaders convinced their people that something as innocent as wearing a pin on their clothing was, in fact, "working on the Sabbath". Their reasoning was because it caused the physical body to carry more weight than necessary. An obvious perversion of the intent.

So the average Jew, and especially Jewish leaders didn't appreciate Jesus admonishing their vain "observances" and calling instead for introspective examination of the condition of their hearts and minds instead.

They were as disgusting as the mindset we see in immoral lawyers. Skirting responsibility for their thoughts and hearts by rigorous exploitation of The Law.

I take great offense to calling Jews disgusting.
The other Jesus was a hero while JC was a cult figure and because he was seen as dangerous to the Romans and bringing more oppression.

While i respect your knowledge I say again that there are many things in the New Testament that are patently impossible to consider factual or they are skewed.

Also I mistakenly said Barabas is Greek.
It is hebrew for son of the father.
I find it extremely difficult for such a coincidence.
I don’t think it is factual but created for purpose of the metaphor.

For people who DID NOT think Jesus was anything more then a preacher who wasn’t even considered divine by his own family they did nothing immoral if they had a sophie’s choice and chose the hero who risked his life for his people.

The analogy you explain is extremely unfair.
And even Jesus’s own closest friends deserted him or betrayed him more then once.
That is not an exemple of people thinking Jesus was son of god or they were just rainy day friends.

Finally in Mark Jesus is described as the child of 2 human beings and he was adopted by God.

I think your comments are the kind that motivate hate or great dislike.

I certainly did not intend to infer that "Jews are disgusting". Apologies if what I wrote was in any way not clear on that point.

Who I called disgusting were the Jewish leaders who bastardized the intent of The Law, as I explained and gave an example.

Surely you wouldn't agree with the correlation of wearing a pin on one's clothing as "working on the Sabbath". Would you?

I think the analogy to modern day ambulance chasers is fairly apt. The Jewish leaders who rebuked Jesus were analogous to someone like Joel Osteen. Perverting Truth for their own power and prestige.

I'd also challenge the notion that the Romans feared anything from Jesus or thought Him dangerous in any way. He was always respectful of their customs and laws excepting when they directly contradicted the will and law of the Father.

Many Jews would not accept a Messiah who preached meekness. They had suffered for centuries at the hands of many oppressors and wanted only the Messiah that was a mighty warrior. They'd been humbled enough for far too long to welcome the Messiah who preached "turn the other cheek" and "love thy enemy".

I do acknowledge that many have perverted facts to rally support concerning antisemitism. "The Jews killed Christ". What these morons fail to grasp is that it was God's will, and there is no NT excuse for the hatred of any person, much less entire groups of people.

Racists, likewise pointed to the story of Cain and Abel and the creation of the Caananites as an excuse for hating blacks. The "mark" God placed on this group of folks was imagined to be black skin. Of course, all of us descend from dark skinned folks, as the cradle of civilization began in Africa. Jesus, the Christ, was certainly not Arian by any ignorant stretch of the imagination.

I cannot and will not temper the truth of what I believe, because some ignorant slob may use it to excuse their hateful and ungodly bigotry.

Jesus' own disciples did indeed abandon Him several times. That is not in dispute. I get what you're saying concerning Barabas, but again it is a principle tenant of The Gospel that our Earthly and fleshly desires must be subservient to those things concerning the Kingdom of Heaven. This caused as much grief among men then as it does now.

Bruce - you are a scholar. Let me address some of your comments.
I know nothing about wearing a pin and perhaps that was in the old testament or not. I can hardly believe that anyone anywhere would have that lead to calling those Rabbis disgusting. It is extremely trivial to wear a pin. It is a statement about rationalize the start of christianity the Paul and Roman way.
The jewish laws and rituals continued to carry on without complaint and it is still true for orthodox jews who represent an extremely large number of jews who live today after extermination attempts by christian germans and Roman mass murders and crusades and pogroms and inquisitions. All of that was done by people considering themselves christian. They were not inspired to do good.

And the people of that era were decidedly superstitious. The Romans with their myths and rituals. They would not accept an amorphous deity.
They got a new Roman god with jewish roots which could be ignored and forgotten.

As for your comment about meekness again you are on the right track. First of all who really knows if Jesus said the meek will inherit the earth.
The jewish population were offended by his claims to being a messiah and any claims of some type of divinity and still are today. That a human cannot be worshiped as God or be God in some way violates one the core beliefs of Judaism.
The old testament God was mystery and not an imaginable visible being and certainly not to be compared or inside of a human.
This is absolutely crucial to your understanding.

As for denouncing him as a false messiah , it stems from the fact that he was not the definition of the messiah. The belief in a messiah was only about 150 years old before the time of Jesus and it was the hope for a strong and powerful and successful military leader. There were such false messiahs before jesus and after. One in fact who had a much higher following led an unsuccessful military campaign. There was a coin made with his image.

What irks me is the thought that the jewish people were obligated to recognize divinity in Jesus.
Jesus had a small following of cowards and a betrayer. Even they did not recognize divinity until after his death.
Surely followers of a man promising an afterlife and being divine would inspire greater loyalty and courage and devotion.
In my opinion Jesus was not more courageous then soldiers fighting a jungle war in vietnam or firefighters or policeman. They go what they do for the greater good and to protect lives and not for entrance into heaven.

And why would Jesus be frightened the night before if he knew he was going to heaven by his perfect knowledge.

I respect your beliefs but I disagree with having blind faith in every word and episode.

Jesus as someone who believed entirely in the old testament literally observed the laws and rituals.
He certainly did not criticize kashrut. He stressed love thy neighbor that preceded him in the old testament.

Jesus said he was there for only the jews so he was not preaching a religion meant for the rest of the world.

Much of the passages of his capture and execution is written to please the Romans who became the christians. It was they who would not accept Jesus if they also had to follow the laws of the old testament.
They could not at all change their diet to kosher and Paul told them they did not have to. Who can imagine them wearing a talis and yamulka or not working on the sabbath or speaking hebrew etc.

The real architect of chistrianity was Paul.
He gave the romans a religion completely disconnected to judaism.

The jews never rebelled because of rituals. It was of supreme importance to them.

And it would be abhorrent for any jew to wish grievous
harm to a fellow jew.
Again the new testament was written for romans
and not jews.

How would the romans accept Jesus if they were blamed as vicious murders of Jesus.
The Romans were never benevolent. That simply does not fit recorded history. Jesus was one of thousands of jews and maybe even some of them went the cross with the courage of innocent martyrs and the executions continued long after Jesus died.

I don’t believe in either bible. Never did since a young child. I saw the bible as stories to inspire and allegories and poetry and metaphorical writings.
Nothing else. Any historical events were exaggerated and part of mythology.

I became even more convinced when i was studying for my bar mitzvah portion.

The new testament never had a chance because it cannot be believed if one does not believe in the old testament - the bible.

When people talk about going to hell for nonbelievers
it does not make me nervous but it angers me because most like a few here say it with a pernicious attitude.

If there is a God I would never ascribe human characteristics or believe that possible.
And certainly God would not be literally talking to people and MOST of all God would never murder innocent babies and whole populations of a country or kill everybody in the whole world to start his failed experiment again.

I could never carry around what I consider a disrespectful belief about the nature of God.

If there is God it is inconceivable that if God was to reveal itself to mankind that it would do so to only a small portion of people and not all of the people.

Everybody wants salvation. I think of God as an entity and process and perhaps inconceivable to the human mind. I believe that in that spirit that God is the power through which we find salvation.

I no more believe in a personal God then I believe in Santa Claus.

I am happy and glad that this thread is being enjoyed and anything I am saying is my personal opinion which was hatched in early childhood.
My father and an uncle taught Hebrew school.
My father encouraged me to have a jewish education but never ever lectured me about judaism and believing in the Bible.
He wanted me to go to the services on the holy days and to have a jewish identity which i consider myself very fortunate to have.

I was given an opportunity to figure it out for myself and that was indeed a very very important gift for which I have eternal gratitude.

And to Saint Matt who accuses me of getting stuff from the internet, all of this comes from the top of my head. I always thought that I had an intellectual obligation to learn about christianity because it is almost all of the USA and 25% of the world population, so I delved in.

Contrary to things you have said I am not evil and it is not wrong to form opinions and views through the rational lens that some of us have.
People can do that and reach different conclusions.

But if you preach to me and in a threatening way that i’m going to hell as you and another has said and as you said with glee that I made my bed then I truly do think of you as a subhuman and an incredibly angry person and it perplexes me as to how you can be the way that you are while being so steeped in the Jesus faith.
It seems to me that you have not learned a blessed thing.

And that is all I have to say about that.

Posted by Jetson21 on 7/14/2022 3:13:00 AM (view original):
And to Saint Matt who accuses me of getting stuff from the internet, all of this comes from the top of my head. I always thought that I had an intellectual obligation to learn about christianity because it is almost all of the USA and 25% of the world population, so I delved in.

Contrary to things you have said I am not evil and it is not wrong to form opinions and views through the rational lens that some of us have.
People can do that and reach different conclusions.

But if you preach to me and in a threatening way that i’m going to hell as you and another has said and as you said with glee that I made my bed then I truly do think of you as a subhuman and an incredibly angry person and it perplexes me as to how you can be the way that you are while being so steeped in the Jesus faith.
It seems to me that you have not learned a blessed thing.

All mankind has sinned, and fallen short of the Glory of God. This includes you

1 John 1:10 it says if we say we have no sin, we lie and his word is not in us

Verse 8 says if we say we have no sin, we DECEIVE yourselves, and the truth is not in us

You are calling God a liar

what did I say that caused you to post.

The 2 books are not history books
and based on your political views and sociological views whatever you say on any subject the opposite is true.