both Z and lost - that N or Number of possessions or sample size was the argument for uptempo all along, I just don't see it any more - I understand it, and have probably won more games running uptempo that any coach in this game, I just quit using it, because it was not working - it appears to me my players get too tired to run it

also, other than lost, I have seen no evidence of any coach running it with abnormal success, while in the old days EVERYONE with success ran it.

What do you mean when your teams are getting too tired? Are your guys playing tired all game or just subing in and out a lot?

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 12/28/2009
What do you mean when your teams are getting too tired? Are your guys playing tired all game or just subing in and out a lot?

team running uptempo shoots poorly and makes to's, I calculate ratios for myself, compare to my other teams, I have pretty much a baseline which I call good or bad, which I do not post or share -

have no idea if they are tired or subbing or whatever, have long learned to ignore that stuff as you see 3 snaphots at random times in games,

I could be wrong about uptempo, hard to question lostmyth, he very likely is correct, at least for his teams

Quote: Originally Posted By oldresorter on 12/28/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 12/28/2009

What do you mean when your teams are getting too tired? Are your guys playing tired all game or just subing in and out a lot?

team running uptempo shoots poorly and makes to's, I calculate ratios for myself, compare to my other teams, I have pretty much a baseline which I call good or bad, which I do not post or share -

have no idea if they are tired or subbing or whatever, have long learned to ignore that stuff as you see 3 snaphots at random times in games,

I could be wrong about uptempo, hard to question lostmyth, he very likely is correct, at least for his teams

I assume you already do this but I will ask anyway, sre you comparing the difference between where your uptempo team shoots and what the other team shoots? I notice with Illinois that we have very good FG% D and because of that I am ok with having potentially a little lower FG% myself (although I haven't noticed it being downright bad like you suggest) add that with the extra turnovers we generate due to more possessions I easily would give up a few missed shots.

Also my teams usually have 75+ ATH/SPD averages and 80+ STA averages.

I'll take a look at it a little closer, to me it was so bad that I sort of snickered when I ran my last test & simply went back to my standard -

again - I see no evidence of the top current winning coaches running uptempo, other than lost. in the old days when davis's theory was running the game, probably the top 500 coaches ran uptempo.

maybe I am just missing it?

there are a lot of topics in this post, and i am getting in late, so sorry for jumping around -

first, CS does say that # of possessions is the primary factor in how tired a team gets. wizard, this is why an uptempo team needs more conditioning - they get more tired. not necc more tired than the other team, just more tired in general. the faq can be misleading, as most quotes by CS, unless you are very careful in reading it. another often misused quote is the one about # of possessions affecting tempo. i think it is fairly obvious a lot more is going on than just # of pos, and i have never seen anything CS said to the contrary. but, it seems many take away from CS quotes that it is just # of possessions that affects tempo. i am not sure why but am almost positive it is not true.

the uptempo issue is a very complex and misunderstood one. so many CS quotes are wrong and/or taken out of context. someone claimed uptempo did not affect fg% - this is something i've seen CS claim a couple times as well. however, i am fairly sure it is not true. i see it as two offsetting factors, 1) uptempo gets more fast break opportunities, more opportunities where the offense has the numbers. not sure how it is implemented but it seems uptempo gets more easy baskets. 2) uptempo teams try to find a shot sooner, so their shot selection in the half court is worse. my belief is in CS stat studies, they used random teams and random tempos, and saw that largely fg% and many other stats were unaffected - this is why they have claimed the only impact of tempo is on # of possessions, which is extremely misleading if not a flat out lie. i feel a similar scenario as with fg% exists with most stats, with 2 offsetting factors.

another tempo issue that people said is set in stone is, teams don't run the ball up faster. that is was not debatable. is that really the case? i remember reading a thread and thought CS said it was part of it (and at the time, i was under the impression they never said that before). anyway, Weena says the only one who can really say is TK or seble. i suggest this is a dangerous way to look at things. look at some of TKs comments on tempo, how misleading and/or wrong they have been. i think he tried to simplify things for the masses, that are grossly misleading to those who are thinking about things the most. a common theme i have observed since i started is some people put way too much stock in CS comments. and they try to build a mountain out of a molehill - CS makes a simple comment on one subject, and people pick apart the words to draw vast implications across a variety of topics. so i would like to caution against taking anything CS says as absolute truth.

finally, i agree with OR for the most part, on uptempo being mostly a disadvantage. i've long felt it was a disadvantage for me almost every time i ran it, and for almost everyone else. similarly, lostmyth's teams are the one case i cannot figure out. my theory at this point is, with a sufficient advantage, playing uptempo vs normal does not have that huge an impact. and lostmyths teams are so much better than everybody else's, that he is going to win those regardless. but the close games, i am somewhat convinced uptempo is a serious disadvantage. at the very least, when i have the best team in the country, i am 99% sure that any team running uptempo is shooting themselves in the foot, badly. on the order of halving their chance of winning. i think question of "is uptempo useful" is totally different when you are talking about playing a significantly worse, roughly even, or significantly better team. i think the value of uptempo is roughly on a sliding scale, where it is questionably useful at the bottom end (playing a worse team), and a crippling disadvantage at the top end (playing a better team).

that said, i think the type of team matters as well. i play a guard sf, with intense focus on speed at the 1-3. i think this is the worst case scenario opponent for somebody playing uptempo. so i think this skews my point of observation badly. i am virtually positive nobody should run uptempo against me when i have one of my better teams, i have watched that extremely closely and have a pretty big sample size. but that certainly doesn't imply anything for other teams, even other really good teams.

I know uptempo isn't what it use to be but I don't see it as a drawback what-so-ever.

Quote: Originally posted by zhawks on 12/28/2009I know uptempo isn't what it use to be but I don't see it as a drawback what-so-ever.

its not a drawback for who? i'm sure you aren't saying that everybody should play uptempo every game... but who would you say should play uptempo?

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i see. do you run it every game zhawks? do you think it is to your advantage to run it every game with every team of yours? i am not trying to be dense, i've read your posts in the thread, but its not clear to me if you use it all the time (or almost all the time) or selectively.

Almost every game. I have since I started coaching. Last season I had to run a lot of slowdown due to a lack of depth.

I do feel it gives me a better chance to win night in and night out. The main reasons are:

• I feel that my teams are usually on the high end of the Ath/Spd spectrum.
• The added possessions gives my team more forced turnovers, which lead to easier baskets
• My Stamina is always good (granted I think most teams are now with FSS) and that allows me to not have to worry about fatigue.

We are always near the top of the Nation in FG% against year in and year out. Currently we are 3rd in the Nation at Illinois and we are 6th in FG% for. 2nd in spg and 2nd in turnover margin.

i am going to throw out a couple guesses for a couple factors that might cause some of us to see tempo so differently. some of the coaches on both sides have played too long, with too much success, for one side to be nearly completely right and the other wrong. so i figure the devil is in the details. i am curious how other people see these factors, as they are all mostly based off my team's strengths and weaknesses, not any actual observations of other teams. they are all areas i am at an extreme on, and there is obvious room for differentiation while maintaining quality. so i am just guessing people at the other extreme might be better off with uptempo than me. hopefully some people with good uptempo experiences have a feel for how their teams are in these areas?

1) rebounding. this is my best guess, and the only one i have observed a little correlation with tempo. i don't know lostmyth/zhawks style, hopefully they will weigh in. but, a quick glance suggests they play with real small forwards, who are quality rebounders. and their big men are top of the line.

it seems to me one of the biggest situations an uptempo team would outperform a normal tempo one is off of rebounds. a good defensive rebound often results in a numbers advantage for a quick team. maybe the coaches who are winning with uptempo have great rebounding? i personally play 3 guards, and always sacrifice talent in my front court for a better back court. so there is room for a pretty sizable gap there.

2) the ability to get guys good looks. my theory is that this affects a team's ability to make use of the extra time used in each offensive possession. if you think of things in a simple world, where you have pretty open shots, and fairly contested ones where you have to work for it, i feel like a team with the ability to get those open shots benefits a lot more from the extra time.

my 3 guard teams are about as good as you can get in this area, it is really one of the core goals of my system. i put a huge priority on spd/bh/pass at the 1-3. so i figure that might be a reason normal tempo works so much better for me than uptempo.

3) propensity to commit turnovers. with the extra time on offense, you are increasing your opportunities to give up turnovers. so maybe a team with poor bh/pass is better off to shoot earlier, and take a worse shot, so they can put up more shots instead of just giving the ball away. plus, there are significant other negatives from turnovers.

my teams fit this mold because they are excellent at avoiding turnovers. more than playing 3 guards, i rarely allow my big men to shoot. they mostly shoot off offensive rebounds. so, the amount of time a guy who is not a suitable pg touches the ball on my team is about as small as it gets.

I too have shied away from uptempo over the last year, mostly because I felt that my offense didn't score as efficiently when I used it. I will say though that seeing lm's and z's comments will at least cause me to take another look.