recruiting debacle Topic

"I would like to see a more concrete recruiting system...its really quite a crapshoot as is."

it is not a crapshoot. you just don't know how it works. feel free to disagree with it, but i don't understand how you can pass judgment on its concreteness without understanding it? have you even played a season of d1? i am not knocking you for not understanding recruiting or having experience or whatever but come on... theres a lot of coin flipping? really?
1/3/2010 1:02 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 1/02/2010
I call you two guys like I see you. It doesn't really matter what you've done over the last 3, 4, 5 years or so, what matters is what I've seen PERSONALLY in the last month...and its a big smooch, smooch with WIS.

No, you're responding to what you saw with is PERSONALLY in not agreeing with your flawed SOS approach. I can point you to numerous threads in that last month where Z and/or myself have criticized WIS. To say otherwise is to have your head buried firmly in the sand and make yourself look moronic.

The current state of matters is what's most important. Both of you guys think that any kind of dissenting opinion or opinions that you don't agree with are inherently wrong, and that really says enough about both of your guys' personalities. I've used the word closed-minded before and I think it fits here too. I'm not questioning the right or wrongness of what happened, I'm saying after analyzing the question as an objective human being, he seems to have a legitimate gripe, which you and zhawks tried to thwart IMMEDIATELY after he posted....you didn't even consider whether he had a legit gripe or not.

You need to understand DI recruiting and how it works to have a valid opinion on this. The other coaches in this thread who are experienced and knowledgeable -- not just Z and myself -- told him it seemed reasonable.

And you have no idea what my thought process is. Of course I considered whether he had a legitimate gripe. It's quite frequent that someone posts a gripe and I say, "Wow, I agree, that shouldn't happen, I'd send a ticket" or something of that sort. Simply put, you're totally off base and not dealing in facts.

Also, the eye test matters. Let's say I'm a potential new customer prospecting the scene and I see a guy get beat out on recruiting that seems to have recruited harder than player B with a 1 or 2 half step letter grade difference, I'm going to second guess joining. Seeing guys like you back that kind of claim would probably stop me altogether.

I would like to see a more concrete recruiting system...its really quite a crapshoot as is. If it was more like the EA Sports format, I'd be happier...that makes sense to me...recruit a guy to your school based on prestige/location/coach prestige/coaching strategy/playing time, etc...have the 4 options hc visit, hc call, ac visit, ac call....give a team so many points based on prestige, schollies available, etc, and you have a better system than what's out there currently. Surprisingly, I find the current recruiting format to be unnecessarily complex...there's really a lot of coin flipping.

I think we'd all be happier if you just stuck to your video games. I'll let gil's answer on this stand ... I wouldn't want to piggyback him, right?

1/3/2010 1:10 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By coach_billyg on 1/03/2010"I would like to see a more concrete recruiting system...its really quite a crapshoot as is."

it is not a crapshoot. you just don't know how it works. feel free to disagree with it, but i don't understand how you can pass judgment on its concreteness without understanding it? have you even played a season of d1? No, but they recruit at D2 and D3 too i am not knocking you for not understanding recruiting or having experience Actually, yes you are...you just told me that I "just don't know how it works" and asked how I can pass judgment on it "without understanding it"...but you're not knocking me for supposedly not understanding recruiting? Please or whatever but come on... theres a lot of coin flipping? really? I just like the EA recruiting system better and since EA and WIS use some of the same technology (Isim) I'm surprised that WIS didn't adopt a more of an EA styled recruiting format. I got both recruits I sought last season even in battles with other schools, so I may not be the best recruiter, but I certainly understand how it works. 8 recruiting cycles per day over 5 days is excessive. Its a lot more feast or famine on WIS than on EA Sports.
1/3/2010 9:09 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By girt25 on 1/03/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 1/02/2010

I call you two guys like I see you. It doesn't really matter what you've done over the last 3, 4, 5 years or so, what matters is what I've seen PERSONALLY in the last month...and its a big smooch, smooch with WIS.

No, you're responding to what you saw with is PERSONALLY in not agreeing with your flawed SOS approach. I can point you to numerous threads in that last month where Z and/or myself have criticized WIS. To say otherwise is to have your head buried firmly in the sand and make yourself look moronic.

Show me.

The current state of matters is what's most important. Both of you guys think that any kind of dissenting opinion or opinions that you don't agree with are inherently wrong, and that really says enough about both of your guys' personalities. I've used the word closed-minded before and I think it fits here too. I'm not questioning the right or wrongness of what happened, I'm saying after analyzing the question as an objective human being, he seems to have a legitimate gripe, which you and zhawks tried to thwart IMMEDIATELY after he posted....you didn't even consider whether he had a legit gripe or not.

You need to understand DI recruiting and how it works to have a valid opinion on this. The other coaches in this thread who are experienced and knowledgeable -- not just Z and myself -- told him it seemed reasonable.

And you have no idea what my thought process is. Of course I considered whether he had a legitimate gripe. It's quite frequent that someone posts a gripe and I say, "Wow, I agree, that shouldn't happen, I'd send a ticket" or something of that sort. Simply put, you're totally off base and not dealing in facts.

What's sending a ticket going to do? They're not going to give you the recruit, they're just going to give you some lame excuse as to why you didn't get the guy, like they did for crazyivan. He has a legitimate gripe, I don't understand how you think he doesn't.

Also, the eye test matters. Let's say I'm a potential new customer prospecting the scene and I see a guy get beat out on recruiting that seems to have recruited harder than player B with a 1 or 2 half step letter grade difference, I'm going to second guess joining. Seeing guys like you back that kind of claim would probably stop me altogether.

I would like to see a more concrete recruiting system...its really quite a crapshoot as is. If it was more like the EA Sports format, I'd be happier...that makes sense to me...recruit a guy to your school based on prestige/location/coach prestige/coaching strategy/playing time, etc...have the 4 options hc visit, hc call, ac visit, ac call....give a team so many points based on prestige, schollies available, etc, and you have a better system than what's out there currently. Surprisingly, I find the current recruiting format to be unnecessarily complex...there's really a lot of coin flipping.

I think we'd all be happier if you just stuck to your video games. I'll let gil's answer on this stand ... I wouldn't want to piggyback him, right?

There's no piggy-backing on your part here...I consider piggy-backing to be when someone quotes person A's post to fire at/attack person B...that's weak to me. I appreciate the back and forth here.

1/3/2010 9:14 AM
I do not post too often on here, and often when I do, I disagree with dalt, but this time he is pretty much right on with his analysis.

There are some good points made by both groups but the reality of this is, there is a huge difference in D1 recruiting and any other level and there is (with apologies to olddave) about a 100% (or double if you prefer) advantage to one full letter grade ( as referenced by WIS before and often alluded to in this forum. I cannot confirm if that is an actual fact since I do not work for WIS but it is the widely accepted value of one full grade.

Now, there is really not any way that crazy could have known the "level" of the grade before recruiting which I personnally think sucks, and I think the information that they put out there for recruiting sucks too, but the result seems to fall within the parameters that we do know about.

I do not know what the EA system is like but I am not a fan of the recruiting system in this game. It is "probably" the single most important thing in the game and it is one of the least clarified or understood parts of the game. (Now I am ranging a bit off topic because I am including what in the world do the ratings actually mean, potential, player interactions, skills interactions, etc).

Anyhow, back to topic, with a 2/3 grade advantage, the 2/3 overspending sounds about right for an even fight (which according to WIS it was) and then it depends on timing of effort, exact breakdown of effort, and probably a few other things. Then *sarcasm coming* what his mama fed him for breakfast the day he signs, and what color the rental car was and how fine the cheerleaders are will help him make his final decision, all for a player that even with all of your scouting and home visits, you still have little idea how good he really is (probably something to do with the language barrier since there are no interpreters to hire in the process *sarcasm off*

Seriously, it is a tough part of the game and we all lose battles and sometimes we win. I don't think anyone here was trying to apologize for WIS, they were just stating the way that it is.

Trying to remember the reason for Christmas, and have a blessed and happy new year.
1/3/2010 11:22 AM
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1/3/2010 1:14 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By marica69 on 1/03/2010
Now, there is really not any way that crazy could have known the "level" of the grade before recruiting which I personnally think sucks,
I disagree

crazy is in his sixth D-1 season. He is not a newb and unless he has not been paying attention, then he shiould have some idea about the relationship between the levels of grades
1/3/2010 4:33 PM
Pink, What I am referring to is how high or low inside of the general prestige grade that the other team was, or for that matter his own, although he probably at least had an idea of his own. Since everything in this game tends to run on a continuem? of numerical values and these are quantified in an alpha grade, there is almsot no difference between the highest value in one grade and the lowest value in the next.
1/3/2010 5:12 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By coach_billyg on 1/03/2010
again, it is not a crap shoot. there is not a lot of coinflipping in battle decision. everything you addressed about the mechanics of WIS recruiting (and i've never played the EA version) does not pertain to the battle in question. and, i was not questioning your knowledge or understand of those mechanics.

when you say its a crap shoot, and a lot of coin flipping, i assumed you were still talking about the battle, or battles in general. not the rest of recruiting. is that true?

anyway, i was not trying to knock you for not understanding the reason the battle turned out how it did. none of us have a full understanding of those mechanics. for example, there is no consensus on things like, how much is prestige worth between the average B and average A d1 school? how many home visits equal 1 campus visit? evals? and so on.

well, all i am pointing out is, if your reaction to the battle is that the outcome is not highly deterministic, then it is because you don't understand it. there may be a random factor on who wins a battle, but it is very slight if any. the decision is very concrete, i think some of us know all of the variables involved, but none of us know exactly how much they are worth. but it is certainly concrete. and without significant coin flipping
I'll explain the EA Sports NCAA Football 2004 recruiting format...its the one I like best and I apologize for using football, however HD and GD recruiting is very similar, and I would want to use a similar recruiting style for both...its not going to happen so just enjoy the clarification.

Please note that in consequent games, recruiting has gotten more complex and I don't really care for it, but I really haven't played the newer NCAA Football games.

In NCAAF 2004, at the end of the season, you get a certain amount of points to recruit with based in team prestige (1-6 stars) and overall team performance (W-L/Rank). Every recruit has a "Top 3 schools" list and the game will highlight the guys that are interested in your school. When you click on the player profile, there's a bar/meter in there to show how great the player's interest in your school is. While in the player profile you can recruit 4 different ways...HC visit, HC call, AC visit, AC call. The amount of points it costs to do each action depends on your team's location in comparison to the recruit's location...thus if you're the coach at Florida State, it would cost 8 points for an HC visit, 4 points for an HC call, 2 points for an AC visit, and 1 point for an AC Call to recruit players in your state...in this case Florida. Depending on how far you are away, the points get greater...I think the max it goes to is something like 48-32-24-8 (for like Canadian recruits or the USA NW) there's another 40-20-10-5...kind of how WIS does theirs, only with points. You can recruit a guy on 4 different principles: Program prestige, location, playing time, coaching style (consequent games have added coach prestige). So again, let's say I'm at Florida State and I'm recruiting Juran Ovito, CB from Tallahassee, FL. His team interests are in order Florida, Texas, and Florida State I decide to put 15 recruit points on him (all 4 actions 8-4-2-1) and I'll recruit based on LOCATION since he's in my state. You'll do this for however many guys you recruit in a given week and then you simulate the week where every team's RECRUIT PLAN is taken into account and factored accordingly. After the Plans simulate, you receive commitments...sometimes you'll sign a boat load in week one, sometimes you'll sign none...hopefully its the former. Your recruiting points regenerate EACH WEEK, however if you have signed some players, your overall recruiting points remaining will decrease. Ok, so I take a look and see that Juran Ovito hasn't signed, but that I am now the top team on his Top 3 team list. I click on the player profile and I get recruiting feedback..."(-)Playing in Tallahassee isn't important to Juran". Thus I'll once again load up 15 points on him...change my recruit strategy for him to PROGRAM PRESTIGE, and sim my recruit plan for week 2. Week 3 of recruiting begins and he still hasn't signed...still tops on my list. I click on his profile and look at the recruiting comments "(+) Juran loves Florida State's tradition"...so I load up Juran Ovito with 15 points again, still pitching PROGRAM PRESTIGE and sim the recruit plan again....HE SIGNS! The crowd goes wild.....

The EA NCAA football recruiting process has....

-5 weeks/cycles of recruiting, with signings/commitments after each week....WIS has 40 cycles? 16 of which before any signings happen? I think you can understand why I wouldn't like WIS' recruiting process after "growing up" on the EA NCAAF series, which is much simpler and I know what I'm recruiting and why they are/aren't interested in my program.

I'm not sure the "Top 3 Schools" thing is good for the game here but I would like to see some transparency in the process...for instance in HD terms with EA concepts....

Let's say you get 5 points per half/third letter grade of your prestige * the number of open scholarships your team has (D- 5, D 10, D+ 15, C- 20, C 25, C+ 30, B- 35, B 40, B+ 45, A- 50, A 55, A+ 60) So let's say your team has a D prestige and you have 4 open schollies...you get 20 points per cycle...or let's say you have a B and 2 schollies to fill, you get 80 points per cycle. For argument's sake, let's say WIS does opt to include the TOP 3 SCHOOLS THING...so we'll say that the number 1 school on the list already has 15 recruit points in the bank, school 2 has 10 and school 3 has 5...all the rest have 0. Hell you wouldn't necessarily need the HC visit, HC call, etc if you wanted to keep this thing simple, you could just put recruit points toward a player based on one of the 4 categories (Program Prestige, Location, Playing Time, Coaching style) and have WIS simulate the recruiting plans each week, giving feedback like EA Sports does and signing each week. It would cost more points to recruit a guy based on location....300 miles points are worth 1....1500 miles, points are worth 1/5 or 0.2...I'm beginning to ramble I think so I'll stop there. After the recruits have been signed, WIS should post the recruit points that each school put forth in each recruits player profile to make the hows and whys transparent.

I hope this clears up what I mean when I talk about crapshoots and coin flipping. I know what I'm putting into a recruit in EA Sports NCAAF, I know what its worth, I get solid recruit feedback as to whether he likes or dislikes what I'm doing...so to go from a format like that to a format where I'm not really sure what I'm spending money for, I get random/scattered feedback from recruits, and that I can now over-recruit in some forms...seems like a crapshoot to me, given my gaming background. I would hope WIS would switch to something like this but I highly doubt it. I hope I cleared it up. I know this was a long post but if you have any comments or questions, please post, thanks.
1/3/2010 7:07 PM
EA recruiting was a joke and WAY to easy. I quit after like 03 or so when the rattling stuff came in, but it was to easy in dynasty mode to sign nothing but 5 stars.
1/3/2010 7:45 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By furry_nipps on 1/03/2010EA recruiting was a joke and WAY to easy. I quit after like 03 or so when the rattling stuff came in, but it was to easy in dynasty mode to sign nothing but 5 stars.
But if you implement that kind of system into a game like this that has so much human participation, I think your perception of said recruiting would change. 1 human v. 116 sims gets boring....150 humans and 126 sims is a lot more interesting.
1/3/2010 7:55 PM
The overall recuriting was dull and boring. Even with humans, it would suck. Not as many recruiting tools (visits, scouting trips, boosters, calls etc) and the interest level shown is to much spoon feeding for my liking.
1/3/2010 8:02 PM
EA recruiting was terrible. In my first season with duke football I signed all 5-star rated recruits and beat out teams that had a huge prestige advantage over me. Installing a system like this would ruin the game and make prestige meaningless.
1/3/2010 8:04 PM
I think you could implement something simpler and along these EA lines and still have it work...I don't think a top 3 schools thing should be done really. I think more transparency and concreteness to the process would be beneficial to the game.
1/3/2010 8:07 PM
What is not concrete about the current system? Are you suggesting there is something random about it? There is nothing to my knowledge random. It is a straightforward calculation of effort x prestige x timing. Now all those calculations aren't shown, but were is the fun in that if I know I have put in 827 pts and my opponent is at 831? It would turn into an auction.
1/3/2010 8:13 PM
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