Quote: Originally Posted By a_in_the_b on 4/12/2010
There you go, Colonels. What he said is essentially what I say.

Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 4/12/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 4/12/2010

I'm not sure that they program in extra randomness. They have never said they did, although several top coaches have postulated that this may be the case.

Personally, I don't think they do, because I don't think they need to. The way the engine runs produces plenty of randomness -- as I believe it should, colonels. I see no reason why HD shouldn't produce randomness similar to real life.

Now, if you started to see randomness and crazy results that far outstripped real life as far as their craziness and/or frequency (which I believe we sometimes do), that would be another story. But just like real life, we have good shooters that have terrible games, crappier players that bust out for great games, teams that win in upsets, etc.

Colonels, it's like poker -- having the better ratings gives you a better chance of achieving the desired outcome, but it doesn't guarantee it, nor should it. Just the same way that pocket aces are going to get cracked by 2-7 offsuit sometimes.

Again, the question isn't whether aces should sometimes get cracked -- of course they should. The question is whether the aces are getting cracked so often that it no longer makes sense.

My point is, has, and always will be, that if I thought the sim was working how its supposed to ALL THE TIME, then I wouldn't be griping AT ALL. I'm not saying the best/better teams should win all the time, but I want the lesser teams to win (when they do) to have won by/because of a good/great engine/randomness, and not because the "better" team got screwed

Quote: Originally Posted By a_in_the_b on 4/12/2010
So you are saying its indisputable based on your feelings? Nope, I'm saying the feel that we ALL have for the game leads us to determine whether an outcome was/is just or not. This has nothing to do with me individually. And if someone else doesn't feel like those games are unreasonable they are somehow a blind apologist because they don't take Colonel's feelings as gospel? Again, I'm not the only guy that thinks at its core, there's something really wrong with the sim. There are guys here that explain EVERYTHING away and JUSTIFY EVERYTHING and those are detrimental to game progress as well, because they don't see anything wrong with bizarre randomness. I honestly read into the things that the "justifiers" say, but if it doesn't match up or equate to a X point swing, then I have the same right to write off and dismiss your claim/logic as well. Yes the things you mentioned have an impact...but 44 points...I don't think so. Context is EVERYTHING. Do you think the Randomness should only work when the other team is controlled by a human coach? Are you saying it should have a different engine somehow when a human and SIMAI play than when two humans play? The point when talking about bizarre results when playing humans as opposed to sims is that humans are better coaches and are more prone to make adjustments/better adjustments than a sim could/does, thus bizarre randomness v. a sim really shows that there's something wrong with the game, because the sim can "choose" not to change anything and unjustifiably win...thus where does the **** stop? What's the argument for BS v. a sim?

Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 4/12/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 4/12/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 4/12/2010

I'm not sure that they program in extra randomness. They have never said they did, although several top coaches have postulated that this may be the case.

Personally, I don't think they do, because I don't think they need to. The way the engine runs produces plenty of randomness -- as I believe it should, colonels. I see no reason why HD shouldn't produce randomness similar to real life.

Now, if you started to see randomness and crazy results that far outstripped real life as far as their craziness and/or frequency (which I believe we sometimes do), that would be another story. But just like real life, we have good shooters that have terrible games, crappier players that bust out for great games, teams that win in upsets, etc.

Colonels, it's like poker -- having the better ratings gives you a better chance of achieving the desired outcome, but it doesn't guarantee it, nor should it. Just the same way that pocket aces are going to get cracked by 2-7 offsuit sometimes.

Again, the question isn't whether aces should sometimes get cracked -- of course they should. The question is whether the aces are getting cracked so often that it no longer makes sense.

My point is, has, and always will be, that if I thought the sim was working how its supposed to ALL THE TIME, then I wouldn't be griping AT ALL. I'm not saying the best/better teams should win all the time, but I want the lesser teams to win (when they do) to have won by/because of a good/great engine/randomness, and not because the "better" team got screwed.

I'm really curious to see how you differentiate between "getting screwed" and "randmoness". Its basically all feel and logic. I think we've all played this game enough to know what acceptable and unacceptable results are, and if you think its questionable, then you should probably post it in the forums. If you beat a team by 40 at their place, you shouldn't lose at home to that team, period....instances like that....unless you benched your starters or something. FWIW, I don't think you guys look at the point swings enough, its just Ws and Ls to a lot of you, at least that's what it seems like. Points matter, my friends.

And personally, I'd rather see a lesser team win due to outcoaching the other guy, which certainly happens. Though I haven't mentioned this, this is implied in my argument. I want a team to win and lose on its own merit(s) and not because the sim damned them to lose or win for that matter.

Quote: Originally Posted By a_in_the_b on 4/12/2010It was both, actually.
That was the test world.
So that was, indeed, the other day and it is, indeed, gone.

Regardless, I was just mentioning it as a result that I would find unreasonable, so why are you so obsessed with it?
Because I wanted to have a look at it myself to see if I deemed it acceptable or not, and since you were the one that brought it up, I thought you would have the decency enough to link it. Right now, I'm not sure it ever existed...your answer is rather shady.

Quote: Originally Posted By a_in_the_b on 4/12/2010
So again, why are your feelings and those who 'feel likewise' without any numbers to back you up again the irony here...I ask for proof, its the *** of everyone's joke, you ask for proof, its ok....I just love this clever juxtaposition.... that they are unreasonable any more valid then people who think they aren't? I'm still waiting for the answer on that. They aren't, but if I think the team that lost was screwed, even after all the explanation, justification, etc, then that's that. I'm not just going to say "OK" and agree with the vets just because they have excuses for what happened....things either add up or they don't and that's for each person to determine, but if you have your mind made up beforehand one way or another, then you're doing an injustice to the system. Like I've said, if the games/sims work the way that I say that I want them to, then why doesn't WIS come out and say that they do? Would clear up a lot of crap.

And I believe earlier you were questioned on how you differentiate 'true randomness' and "Getting screwed' I am still waiting for your answer to that question. Answered...and it wasn't your question fwiw. Again funny that you would repost a question to hold me accountable, yet you'll pick and choose your response items.

Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 4/12/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 4/12/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 4/12/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 4/12/2010

I'm not sure that they program in extra randomness. They have never said they did, although several top coaches have postulated that this may be the case.

Personally, I don't think they do, because I don't think they need to. The way the engine runs produces plenty of randomness -- as I believe it should, colonels. I see no reason why HD shouldn't produce randomness similar to real life.

Now, if you started to see randomness and crazy results that far outstripped real life as far as their craziness and/or frequency (which I believe we sometimes do), that would be another story. But just like real life, we have good shooters that have terrible games, crappier players that bust out for great games, teams that win in upsets, etc.

Colonels, it's like poker -- having the better ratings gives you a better chance of achieving the desired outcome, but it doesn't guarantee it, nor should it. Just the same way that pocket aces are going to get cracked by 2-7 offsuit sometimes.

Again, the question isn't whether aces should sometimes get cracked -- of course they should. The question is whether the aces are getting cracked so often that it no longer makes sense.

My point is, has, and always will be, that if I thought the sim was working how its supposed to ALL THE TIME, then I wouldn't be griping AT ALL. I'm not saying the best/better teams should win all the time, but I want the lesser teams to win (when they do) to have won by/because of a good/great engine/randomness, and not because the "better" team got screwed.

I'm really curious to see how you differentiate between "getting screwed" and "randmoness". Its basically all feel and logic. I think we've all played this game enough to know what acceptable and unacceptable results are, and if you think its questionable, then you should probably post it in the forums. If you beat a team by 40 at their place, you shouldn't lose at home to that team, period....instances like that....unless you benched your starters or something. FWIW, I don't think you guys look at the point swings enough, its just Ws and Ls to a lot of you, at least that's what it seems like. Points matter, my friends.

And personally, I'd rather see a lesser team win due to outcoaching the other guy, which certainly happens. Though I haven't mentioned this, this is implied in my argument. I want a team to win and lose on its own merit(s) and not because the sim damned them to lose or win for that matter.