Posted by tangplay on 9/13/2021 12:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bruceleefan on 9/12/2021 11:52:00 PM (view original):
There is a pretty good amount of evidence that covid survivors have strong immunity against the virus.

Some studies even suggest their natural immunity is stronger than that gained from the vaccines.

That's not true, but even if it was, what would we take from this?

That we should all intentionally get the virus and risk death or long term effects instead of simply taking the easy and free vaccine?

Pretty old. The know it all bunch offering nothing in the way of evidence but proclaiming as fact anything they feel.

"That's not true"? Which part? The first FACT or the second? Or all of it?
Oh well pardon me. I will disregard the evidence and take your word then, since your retort was so well reasoned and supported.

If the only take away you can imagine is "we should all intentionally get the virus", then I will just refrain from responding to you and bid you good day.

"Does SARS-CoV-2 natural infection immunity better protect against the Delta variant than vaccination? | News-Medical" https://www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20210830/Does-SARS-CoV-2-natural-infection-immunity-better-protect-against-the-Delta-variant-than-vaccination.aspx

"Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19 | National Institutes of Health (NIH)" https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19

"New study showing strength of natural immunity from COVID-19 doesn’t change UPMC recommendations on vaccination" https://www.pennlive.com/news/2021/09/new-study-showing-strength-of-natural-immunity-from-covid-19-doesnt-change-upmc-recommendations-on-vaccination.html?outputType=amp

"COVID-19 survivors may possess wide-ranging resistance to the disease | Emory University | Atlanta, GA" https://news.emory.edu/stories/2021/07/covid_survivors_resistance/index.html

You Mr. Lee are what I choose to call one of the willfully ignorant.
It makes little sense to banter back and forth about accepted scientific and medical facts accepted in every single country in the world with someone so smart and so intelligent that he thinks his logical course of action is to risk his life on a daily basis.
You don’t just walk in traffic once in awhile. You wake up every morning and do it all day and think it is smart and logical.
God save the Queen.

You've offered nothing of value to any discussion since you showed up. Except maybe the 15 posts about the Jetsons. You are dismissed.

Hands over ears.............WAH WAH WAH WAH.............I CANCEL YOU.
(cause I can't handle what you say)

Posted by bruceleefan on 9/13/2021 3:05:00 PM (view original):
You've offered nothing of value to any discussion since you showed up. Except maybe the 15 posts about the Jetsons. You are dismissed.

You can’t dismiss me. I have already dismissed you.
You flunk and are sent back to kindergarten.
And the real Bruce Lee was a jerk too.

I am glad that you like the Jetsons however.

Posted by bruceleefan on 9/13/2021 2:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 9/13/2021 12:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bruceleefan on 9/12/2021 11:52:00 PM (view original):
There is a pretty good amount of evidence that covid survivors have strong immunity against the virus.

Some studies even suggest their natural immunity is stronger than that gained from the vaccines.

That's not true, but even if it was, what would we take from this?

That we should all intentionally get the virus and risk death or long term effects instead of simply taking the easy and free vaccine?

Pretty old. The know it all bunch offering nothing in the way of evidence but proclaiming as fact anything they feel.

"That's not true"? Which part? The first FACT or the second? Or all of it?
Oh well pardon me. I will disregard the evidence and take your word then, since your retort was so well reasoned and supported.

If the only take away you can imagine is "we should all intentionally get the virus", then I will just refrain from responding to you and bid you good day.

"Does SARS-CoV-2 natural infection immunity better protect against the Delta variant than vaccination? | News-Medical" https://www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20210830/Does-SARS-CoV-2-natural-infection-immunity-better-protect-against-the-Delta-variant-than-vaccination.aspx

"Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19 | National Institutes of Health (NIH)" https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19

"New study showing strength of natural immunity from COVID-19 doesn’t change UPMC recommendations on vaccination" https://www.pennlive.com/news/2021/09/new-study-showing-strength-of-natural-immunity-from-covid-19-doesnt-change-upmc-recommendations-on-vaccination.html?outputType=amp

"COVID-19 survivors may possess wide-ranging resistance to the disease | Emory University | Atlanta, GA" https://news.emory.edu/stories/2021/07/covid_survivors_resistance/index.html

Sorry, I should have clarified because the rest of my post apparently didn't spell it out for you. YES, people who survive COVID do have some immunity against the virus. NO, it is not stronger than the vaccine.

So I went through your articles. The first is a single study from Israel suggesting that natural immunity is stronger. Here's my problem - it doesn't adjust for age. Later on in the article, it says that those vaccinated in the sample were from early 2021. Who was being prioritized for the vaccine in early 2021? OLD PEOPLE. I'm also assuming that those who got infected earlier in the pandemic and are fine now are more likely to be young, as young people are more likely to survive. There's every possibility that this study was comparing old vaccinated people to young people who have natural immunity, and found that the old people were more likely to be hospitalized. That's not surprising. If the study accounted for age, I would be more convinced.

The second source just shows that some protection exists if you already got the virus, which I agree with. It came out before the vaccines.

The third one just proves my point. It cites the Israel study but then has multiple paragraphs where doctors break down the flaws in the study and why they still recommend vaccines.

The fourth is like the second - it doesn't compare the vaccine to natural immunity.

So essentially, you have one non-peer reviewed pre-print study suggesting that natural immunity is more effective than the vaccine, another article citing the study but saying that you should still get the vaccine, and two articles saying that natural immunity is a thing, which no one disagrees with.

With all that being said, now it's my turn.
https://hub.jhu.edu/2021/09/10/infection-from-covid-vs-vaccines/

For those who have already had COVID-19 in the past, why would a vaccine still be necessary?
The vaccines still lower your risks. We have evidence showing that if you've been naturally infected with COVID-19 and you aren't vaccinated, your risk of getting reinfected with symptomatic disease is about 2.5–fold higher. When you introduce the vaccine to someone who's already had COVID-19, the body says, "Hey, I remember that, I'm going to stimulate the immune response so you're protected." You're pumping up your antibodies to higher levels so they can stop the virus before it enters your system.

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

In today’s MMWR, a study of COVID-19 infections in Kentucky among people who were previously infected with SAR-CoV-2 shows that unvaccinated individuals are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated after initially contracting the virus. These data further indicate that COVID-19 vaccines offer better protection than natural immunity alone and that vaccines, even after prior infection, help prevent reinfections.

“If you have had COVID-19 before, please still get vaccinated,” said CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky. “This study shows you are twice as likely to get infected again if you are unvaccinated. Getting the vaccine is the best way to protect yourself and others around you, especially as the more contagious Delta variant spreads around the country.”

The study of hundreds of Kentucky residents with previous infections through June 2021 found that those who were unvaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. The findings suggest that among people who have had COVID-19 previously, getting fully vaccinated provides additional protection against reinfection.

Additionally, a second publication from MMWR shows vaccines prevented COVID-19 related hospitalizations among the highest risk age groups. As cases, hospitalizations, and deaths rise, the data in today’s MMWR reinforce that COVID-19 vaccines are the best way to prevent COVID-19.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

In summation, there's one study that suggests MAYBE natural immunity is better, but most doctors and the CDC disagree.

But let's say you are right. Maybe natural immunity does protect better than the vaccine. My question to you is why even bring it up? Why did you think it would be relevant? What policy prescriptions would you offer based on that?

Because even the Israeli study showed that vaccinations are still beneficial to those who already had COVID. Experts are unanimous on that issue.

YOU decided to bring the argument up. Would love to see you justify it.

Jetson21 already sounding an awful lot like dino, especially for an account created on Sep 1.

What's your opinion on Israel?

I don’t know why you ask.
Could you explain to me why you bring up Israel.

I guess I would be happy to answer but why was that brought up ?

Posted by tangplay on 9/13/2021 3:22:00 PM (view original):
But let's say you are right. Maybe natural immunity does protect better than the vaccine. My question to you is why even bring it up? Why did you think it would be relevant? What policy prescriptions would you offer based on that?

Because even the Israeli study showed that vaccinations are still beneficial to those who already had COVID. Experts are unanimous on that issue.

YOU decided to bring the argument up. Would love to see you justify it.

I will preface this by saying that I am actually one of the vaccinated. I chose the Moderna back in June, but that doesn't mean I can't understand the hesitancy of some.

We know NOTHING about the potential long term risks of the vaccines. Anyone who claims otherwise is a liar. We CAN'T know because it is so new. Hopefully there aren't any, but we've all seen the Zantac class action suits (as simply the first to come to mind among many many such cases). A product that actually had full FDA approval (Not just some phony rushed status like the vaccines) now KNOWN to have had debilitating effects.

If one is already a survivor, chooses to social distance wears a mask when they can't and takes every other precaution, how can we possibly justify forcing this drug into that individual?

Not only that, but you've also discounted that person and deemed them "less than" because of their calculated and thoughtful decision.

Again, hopefully for all of our sakes, this is the safest, most side effect free drug we've ever taken, but what if it isn't? We won't know for years and years.

I agree people should get the vaccine, what I don't agree with is mandating it and forcing it on people, and essentially writing them off as stupid.

Who's going to pay the claims if it is discovered that it caused other health problems? You? Dino? Uncle Sam?

I’m glad you are vaccinated so you are not willfully ignorant but I do believe there is no plausible excuse for not getting vaccinated and for those hesitant because of your data I say they. are ignorant and fit the metaphor I used.

There have been references to Dino.
I am not him.
I get the fact that Jetson and Dino seem related.
I don’t know if his name was based on Dino Flintstone or Dino Martin but I am not him.

Netanyahooooo is a war criminal, corrupt thug.

Posted by bruceleefan on 9/13/2021 4:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 9/13/2021 3:22:00 PM (view original):
But let's say you are right. Maybe natural immunity does protect better than the vaccine. My question to you is why even bring it up? Why did you think it would be relevant? What policy prescriptions would you offer based on that?

Because even the Israeli study showed that vaccinations are still beneficial to those who already had COVID. Experts are unanimous on that issue.

YOU decided to bring the argument up. Would love to see you justify it.

I will preface this by saying that I am actually one of the vaccinated. I chose the Moderna back in June, but that doesn't mean I can't understand the hesitancy of some.

We know NOTHING about the potential long term risks of the vaccines. Anyone who claims otherwise is a liar. We CAN'T know because it is so new. Hopefully there aren't any, but we've all seen the Zantac class action suits (as simply the first to come to mind among many many such cases). A product that actually had full FDA approval (Not just some phony rushed status like the vaccines) now KNOWN to have had debilitating effects.

If one is already a survivor, chooses to social distance wears a mask when they can't and takes every other precaution, how can we possibly justify forcing this drug into that individual?

Not only that, but you've also discounted that person and deemed them "less than" because of their calculated and thoughtful decision.

Again, hopefully for all of our sakes, this is the safest, most side effect free drug we've ever taken, but what if it isn't? We won't know for years and years.

I agree people should get the vaccine, what I don't agree with is mandating it and forcing it on people, and essentially writing them off as stupid.

Who's going to pay the claims if it is discovered that it caused other health problems? You? Dino? Uncle Sam?

You are correct that as we cannot see far into the future, we don't know for certain that there won't be long-term effects of the vaccine. However, I'm willing to bet that usually, when long-term complications take place, we can see some risks within a year of the vaccine being administered. Nearly 2.5 billion people are vaccinated. Don't you think that if there were some long-term effects, we would see SOME evidence of it being the case? From what I understand of the Zantac situation, the risks were already warned of for years until the FDA recall, and even then we're dealing with an infinitesimally smaller sample size and scrutiny than this vaccine has been under. Furthermore, comparing a pharma drug to a vaccine probably isn't fair.

It could also be the case that 50 years from now our brains just implode because we were in contact with an iPhone for too long, and we just didn't know that brain explosions were a long-term side effect of being around smartphones. We cannot prove that this will not be the case. However, we can make a reasonable assumption that it won't be.

With all this being said, if enough people don't get vaccinated, this virus is going to continue to mutate and evolve until the current vaccines are bypassed. That's why we need to encourage vaccination as much as possible. If you don't get vaccinated, chances are that eventually you WILL get COVID. And unlike the vaccine, we DO know that COVID is linked to long term health issues. On one hand, you have a vaccine that has killed maybe a literal handful of people out of billions and seems to be safe so far, vs a virus that has killed millions and has confirmed long term effects. Wow, this is a really difficult and complicated decision!

Choosing not to get the vaccine is NOT a thoughtful or calculated decision. If you ask your doctor, or 99.9% of medical experts, chances are they'll tell you to get vaccinated. Yes, I will judge you for not getting the vaccine if you've had the opportunity. You're either misinformed (such as you were on the vaccine's effectiveness or the status of FDA approval) or unable to make basic risk assessments.

I don't support mandates in terms of legality. No one should be thrown in jail for choosing not to get vaccinated. However, I fully support schools, workplaces, and other public spaces mandating vaccines for access or employment. If you want to go live out in the woods as a walking bio-weapon, go for it. If you want to participate in society, do the bare ******* minimum to keep yourself and others safe.