Posted by tmacfan12 on 10/30/2022 12:50:00 PM (view original):
Yeah Im legit confused like if you guys want to play with cheaters fine, I'm out though

i don't think anyone is saying that or even anything adjacent to it...

Interesting thread. Interesting discussion about what I see as merely the tip of the iceberg. So what do I see as the big picture, the iceberg?

THE SPORTSHUB GAMES NETWORK

Always remember, if SportsHub is a 400 lb. gorilla network of GAMBLING sites, then WIS is just the little toe of that animal. Organized legal gambling is surely where the real money is in the realm of SportsHub. WIS is peanuts compared to organized legal gambling.

And here's another thing no one has mentioned in this thread: integrity. Any gambling network rises or falls on its perceived integrity. Do you think the sportsbooks being advertised on NFL game tv broadcasts would tolerate anything that would cloud their perceived integrity? I think not.

Integrity is a little bit like pregnancy. You cannot have just a little bit of either. You either have it or you don't. There are no shades of gray to either.

Here is the position the devs find themselves in now. Will the site's integrity be restored, or will it be sacrificed? Remember, there is no such thing as partially restoring integrity. For my 2 cents, I truly hope it will be restored. Then they can restore integrity in GD, where some of the best-known and most successful long time coaches utilize a recruiting exploit involving offering sophomore starts to all recruits, then dropping and reclaiming their teams.

i agree with most of that, except the notion implied from " Do you think the sportsbooks being advertised on NFL game tv broadcasts would tolerate anything that would cloud their perceived integrity?:"

100% of sportsbook websites have significant vulnerabilities, too. daily fantasy, online sports betting, online poker, online casinos, have all had countless cheating scandals and certainly are vulnerable to manipulation. throw online stock trading in there too. the only thing impressive in all of this is that that consortium of low-integrity operations have convinced so many people that they have integrity in the first place.

all these big gambling sites you talk about, their response to cheating scandals has been absolutely garbage. your post like... it is so far off in suggesting that big gambling websites don't have these problems and that if they did, they would handle it well, they would operate with integrity. i'm not trying to be a dick, but to me this shows complete ignorance of the countless scandals that have occurred in that exact space. which is normal - most folks have no idea how pervasive these issues are. one example, not too long ago it came out that a bunch of cheaters on a number of major poker websites (ultimatebet, absolute poker) could see the cards of their opponents. impacted players lost tens of millions. did those websites fully reimburse those impacted by cheating? of course not! now granted, tons of users left over it, and rightfully so, but it went on for many years before that happened.

none of this absolves CS of the responsibility to handle the issue with integrity. and none of this has anything to do with the cheater in this thread, F that guy, this is not a defense of him. or of CS. but context does matter, and the general internet community, along with the general gambling community, kind of wander around in this blissful ignorance of how screwed up the entire system is. so then they get overly outraged and overly surprised when stuff happens that is literally happening on a continuous basis and is frankly inevitable. it should be more of a 'here we go again, let's apply steady pressure to make sure CS handles this one reasonably', more than a 'holy **** i can't believe this happened!'. it was guaranteed to happen, a matter of when, not if.

Posted by npb7768 on 10/30/2022 12:59:00 PM (view original):
My favorite cheat was the guy who would redshirt a guy, then remove the redshirt, which used to increase the WE maybe 3/4th of a rating point... he redshirted/recalled each of his guys like 150 times... so he would pop up his players' Work Ethics up to 99.

That was a fun Forum discussion.

That was certainly a classic moment in the history of HD cheaters. I believe his name was “Wizard”-something. The irony, a sports simulation site makes button mashing an exercise to success, at least until you’re caught!

Our current perpetrator is separating himself from the wizards and ab90s of the world by not giving us some trope defending his actions. He could further reconcile himself to the community by coming clean. His insights might actually help CS and the developers figure out what caused the vulnerability.

Lastly, maybe this could be a plea deal of sorts. Come forward now and give names of others who might be using this cheating method. One could think he shared it with close friends.

Gil that's all fine. It is way more clear-cut for me than for you I guess. I don't need to dig into a random person on the internet's behaviors, he cheated simple as that. I don't really need to engage in all of this, its a personal decision where if a situation like this does not result in a permanent ban in the user's account, I would rather not play and am out.

Posted by gillispie on 10/30/2022 12:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tmacfan12 on 10/30/2022 12:50:00 PM (view original):
Yeah Im legit confused like if you guys want to play with cheaters fine, I'm out though

i don't think anyone is saying that or even anything adjacent to it...

YOU are saying this. With all your fluff talk. Yes we all know that people find ways to cheat. There’s always going to be people like that. But if you haven’t noticed, you’re the only one saying “no big deal”. You can’t change the minds of people that don’t think like you. And neither can I. So give up trying.

We’re not on a witch hunt. We’re expecting punishment for a confirmed cheater. If you want to protect him and defend him, feel free. You’re just not going to get many people to ride along with you. People that pay for this don’t like that ****. You’re not even all that invested in this. You coach a team here and there, or co-coach, and you also probably have a billion credits. Not everybody does.

Honestly this site drops the ball with every situation like this that we have. They don’t do anything to punish. They **** everyone off in the process. And years later the same person does the same thing and gets punished after about 4 times. That in between time keeps bad tastes in the mouth of others and contributes to the departure of some when they leave the game.

If CS were to remove him, entirely, I doubt any person here besides Gil and maybe shoe would give a damn. 99% of us would say, wow they got it right this time. I’m not even really rooting for CS to ban him. But if they did, no one would be upset about it.

Posted by topdogggbm on 10/30/2022 2:45:00 PM (view original):
Honestly this site drops the ball with every situation like this that we have. They don’t do anything to punish. They **** everyone off in the process. And years later the same person does the same thing and gets punished after about 4 times. That in between time keeps bad tastes in the mouth of others and contributes to the departure of some when they leave the game.

If CS were to remove him, entirely, I doubt any person here besides Gil and maybe shoe would give a damn. 99% of us would say, wow they got it right this time. I’m not even really rooting for CS to ban him. But if they did, no one would be upset about it.

I think we all mostly agree on this topic, which is pretty rare around here.

But you are 1000% correct on the most important thing here. WIS always dropping the ball when things like this happen. This was easy for them to handle where the vast majority of us would have been satisfied (not everyone of course).

All Jordan had to say was "We confirmed he was breaking the rules and are working on a fix. We will determine the extent of the punishment over the next few days."

That's it. As Gil has said, you can't prevent cheating completely. And we all recognize that. But you have to at least give the IMPRESSION that the site cares about cheating and will try to prevent it.

I think the thing that CS - and maybe a few others- fail to realize is that a person who cheats via bugs and glitches will probably TRY TO FIND OTHER WAYS TO CHEAT.

If CS just closes the glitch and delivers no punishment, what do you think this person is going to do? Just play normally? Or are they going to look for other glitches to exploint. Gee idk.

"your post like... it is so far off in suggesting that big gambling websites don't have these problems and that if they did, they would handle it well, they would operate with integrity"

I never said that, though, if you'll read my post carefully. I'm aware they have had scandals. I said they would do everything in their power to try to retain integrity. Granted they might not succeed, but they try as hard as possible. Here (HD), it is a simple thing to understand. CS acknowledges the guy deliberately broke the rules. Will they come down on him like a ton of bricks, or slap his wrist? Will the site's integrity be restored, or will it be sacrificed? Will they make an example out of him as a deterrent, or will they wink at the whole thing as they have in the past?

You say, "but context does matter." That's right, and stop using that argument to muddy the water and excuse the guy. The context here is crystal 100% clear -- he cheated deliberately.

"Honestly this site drops the ball with every situation like this that we have." Yes, and so far they seem to have kept that knowledge from the gambling sites they run. Maybe that's where we have to take the efforts to get them to clean up HD and GD. Maybe someone over there has some influence that HD and GD users don't seem to have.

Posted by topdogggbm on 10/30/2022 2:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 10/30/2022 12:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tmacfan12 on 10/30/2022 12:50:00 PM (view original):
Yeah Im legit confused like if you guys want to play with cheaters fine, I'm out though

i don't think anyone is saying that or even anything adjacent to it...

YOU are saying this. With all your fluff talk. Yes we all know that people find ways to cheat. There’s always going to be people like that. But if you haven’t noticed, you’re the only one saying “no big deal”. You can’t change the minds of people that don’t think like you. And neither can I. So give up trying.

We’re not on a witch hunt. We’re expecting punishment for a confirmed cheater. If you want to protect him and defend him, feel free. You’re just not going to get many people to ride along with you. People that pay for this don’t like that ****. You’re not even all that invested in this. You coach a team here and there, or co-coach, and you also probably have a billion credits. Not everybody does.

no accounting for nuance... i agree its a big deal. not trying to say it isn't. it is, and the guy should be punished, i agree with all that. just not as hysterical about it. CS doesn't need to ban the guy the same day to reasonably respond to the situation. its not even the end of the 1st day, heading into a holiday weekend, and the posts start about CS needs to ban him or we are all quitting...

not a big deal and not extraordinary are not the same. this is a big deal, but its ordinary, and CS should be able to deal with it in normal order. without pre-emptive outrage.

again, i agree its a big deal and there should be consequences.

I would hope so. I say that you aren’t invested here, as far as playing the game. And I stand by that. But you are VERY respected by the HD community. Including myself. Differences aside, you may feel as if we’re reacting too harsh or too fast, and that’s fine. You’re very clear in your words, which is important. But people ‘look up to you’ in HD terms. People that spend money here.

I know your intentions are good. Mine are as well. I just hope it all gets addressed. I’m off my soap box

"just not as hysterical about it. CS doesn't need to ban the guy the same day to reasonably respond to the situation. its not even the end of the 1st day, heading into a holiday weekend, and the posts start about CS needs to ban him or we are all quitting"

Totally understand your point. And you're right... Except in this situation. The reason CS is doing ANYTHING about this is BECAUSE everyone freaked out. If people didn't freak out then nothing, not even a "we'll look in to it" would have happened. It's a big difference.

Posted by Benis on 10/30/2022 6:45:00 PM (view original):
"just not as hysterical about it. CS doesn't need to ban the guy the same day to reasonably respond to the situation. its not even the end of the 1st day, heading into a holiday weekend, and the posts start about CS needs to ban him or we are all quitting"

Totally understand your point. And you're right... Except in this situation. The reason CS is doing ANYTHING about this is BECAUSE everyone freaked out. If people didn't freak out then nothing, not even a "we'll look in to it" would have happened. It's a big difference.

I do think that WIS would have done something eventually. You are absolutely correct that the reaction on the forums is forcing WIS to address the situation now rather than at their leisure (next year's supposed update.)

That's too bad.

they can not punish him and continue to make almost zero off him if he continues to cheat and get credits, while perhaps 20 others quit the site and they lose that revenue. or they could punish him and restore the credibility to the site and perhaps lose nobody. i lost a TON of recruits to his team in past 2 seasons and will admit i am beyond ****** off. my money was stolen as far as i am concerned because i didn't get what i paid for.