No excuses tonight - you guys must win against lowly CBJ.

You mean tomorrow...and agreed...they need to come out guns blazing, not just tomorrow but the rest of the way.

Posted by andru2797 on 3/31/2011 9:45:00 AM (view original):
You mean tomorrow...and agreed...they need to come out guns blazing, not just tomorrow but the rest of the way.

yep, my bad - tomorrow ;)

I was getting too excited about my hockey watching schedule the next week or so....

Flyers Tonight

Hawks and Flyers Tomorrow night

Hawks and Flyers Sunday all day

Hawks and Flyers Tuesday night

Toews is already an elite player and doesn't need to do anything to confirm that.

Posted by mudbone1969 on 3/31/2011 6:42:00 PM (view original):
Toews is already an elite player and doesn't need to do anything to confirm that.

I disagree...He still has lots of room to grow offensively. I think he tops out at maybe 90 pts (in his career), but he's not quite there yet.

Posted by andru2797 on 3/31/2011 11:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mudbone1969 on 3/31/2011 6:42:00 PM (view original):
Toews is already an elite player and doesn't need to do anything to confirm that.

I disagree...He still has lots of room to grow offensively. I think he tops out at maybe 90 pts (in his career), but he's not quite there yet.

Yeah... he's a top end player in the league today but I'm not even close to ready to add him to my 'elite player list' that includes guys like Gretzky, Yzerman, and Messier. When I hear 'elite' that's the type of players I think of. Crosby and Ovechkin are good examples of elite players in the league today..... (barring injury) these guys consistantly lead the league in goals and points.

Well to be fair I don't think a player necessaily has to be a top end scorer to be an "elite" player. For example, I consider Bob Gainey an elite player simply because no one even comes close to being as good defensively. Rod Brind'Amour, in my opinion, is an elite player because he did everything very well, a very rare trait in the NHL today. Mike Richards and Jonathan Toews are two guys who remind me alot of the Rod Brind'Amours of the 90's. They may never lead the entire NHL in scoring, but they will lead their teams some years, and be excellent defensively and on faceoffs, play in every situation, are unquestioned leaders and good role-models as well. That to me should be considered "elite" as well. Not many of those in the NHL today.

Posted by andru2797 on 4/1/2011 7:57:00 AM (view original):
Well to be fair I don't think a player necessaily has to be a top end scorer to be an "elite" player. For example, I consider Bob Gainey an elite player simply because no one even comes close to being as good defensively. Rod Brind'Amour, in my opinion, is an elite player because he did everything very well, a very rare trait in the NHL today. Mike Richards and Jonathan Toews are two guys who remind me alot of the Rod Brind'Amours of the 90's. They may never lead the entire NHL in scoring, but they will lead their teams some years, and be excellent defensively and on faceoffs, play in every situation, are unquestioned leaders and good role-models as well. That to me should be considered "elite" as well. Not many of those in the NHL today.

I guess we will have to differ there - (although agreed elitism doesn't only refer to scoring). Elite is 'best in league' for me. Not 'best on team'. While I agree Brind'Amour, Toews, Richie, etc are/were fantastic 2 way players and dynamic team leaders they still are not in that 'elite' status of a Gretzky, Messier, Lemieux, etc to name a few centers. These guys were UNSTOPPABLE. In today's league Ovechkin and Crosby are 'elites' imo --- would you seriously at this point put Toews in that category with them? I think if you did I could make the argument that Malkin, Stamkos, Backstrom, Sedin, and Kopitar also are elite centers in the NHL..... but then if 8 centers in the league are considered 'elite' I would suggest we really have low standards for 'elitism'. jmo. I do think Toews is an outstanding player in the league and will continue to be one... just right now he is not an elite imo. Neither was Brind'Amour (whom I always enjoyed watching in Philly). Actully heard a great story from a client of mine (who is well connected with the NHL) about Rod, Rod's wife, Lindros, and Tocchet.... but I'll save that one for another time ;)

I see your point...perhaps Brind'Amour wasn't the best example. The point I was trying to make is that a player can be an "elite" player by excelling at various aspects of the game, not just offense. Maybe a better example is Bryan Trottier. He was a top-end player in every category imaginable, although he wasn't necessarily the "best" or "most dominant". I wouldn't even classify an elite player as unstoppable, necessarily. I suppose to me, elite players are those whose skills are absolutely indispensable to their team winning. Bryan Trottier was never unstoppable, per se, but the fact that he combined excellent defense, superb leadership and top-end offensive production makes him an elite player in my mind. I think the "best-case" scenario for Jonathan Toews is that he becomes a Bryan Trottier type of player at his peak. More realistically though, I see him being more like a Rod Brind'Amour + (because I believe he's a little better offensively than Rod was).

I wanna hear the rest of the Rod's wife story!!

Deleted.

Not worth arguing with Chicago myopia. Toew is the best center in the NHL, period.

Cmon muddy, even you have to admit he's not on the same level as Sid as an individual player. At least, not yet (you never know). By that rationale, if Crosby is an "elite" player in the NHL right now, then Toews would have to be a step below.

Kesler and Henrik Sedin are both better than those stiffs..Toews is the Canucks 3rd line center at best

Posted by andru2797 on 4/1/2011 6:22:00 PM (view original):
Cmon muddy, even you have to admit he's not on the same level as Sid as an individual player. At least, not yet (you never know). By that rationale, if Crosby is an "elite" player in the NHL right now, then Toews would have to be a step below.

Not offensively, but Toews is by far the better defender and a more well-rounded player.