Posted by mudbone1969 on 4/2/2011 8:31:00 PM (view original):
What question?  Toews is in the group that includes the best players in hockey.  There is simply nobody with any hockey knowledge that would disagree with that.

I shall clarify - 

ELITE means the BEST OF THE BEST imo. Is Toews one of the best of the best?  I agree he's one of the best but he is not even close to Ovi or Crosby.  Ovi just got his league leading 11th gwg tonight and has 81 points in what is quite frankly his worst season of his 5 year career. The Caps are #1 in the East right now.  The Hawks are #8 in the west right now when you swore the Hawks would be a 1-3 seed before the season began.  Leadership or let down?

both you guys are uneducated..where is Sedin? they are both better than Ovie and Sid...get ur sh!t  together ..both of you sound stupid...idiots

Posted by randle44 on 4/2/2011 11:12:00 PM (view original):
both you guys are uneducated..where is Sedin? they are both better than Ovie and Sid...get ur sh!t  together ..both of you sound stupid...idiots

don't watch sedin enough.  can't even tell him and his sister apart.... edit - that said - they are winning back to back Hart Trophies.

well I will contest the fact that a player has to lead the league in something or break a record before being considered elite. Steve yzerman by any measure was an elite player, and yet he never led the league in goals, assists or points and never won a hart trophy.

Posted by andru2797 on 4/3/2011 1:03:00 AM (view original):
well I will contest the fact that a player has to lead the league in something or break a record before being considered elite. Steve yzerman by any measure was an elite player, and yet he never led the league in goals, assists or points and never won a hart trophy.

I think its safe to say the nhl's 6th all time points leader was an elite player and an exception to the general rule I just posted. He's won a ton of awards (both individual and team) and 3 Stanley Cups as a player. He was always at the top of the leaderboard but unfortunately he also played in the gretzky/lemieux era.  At least one can make an argument for him.  I keep asking muddy to provide more of a case for Toews than a 2010 Stanley Cup, 2010 Conn Smythe, and a 2010 best forward on the Olympic Team.  He can't provide anymore than that so he just pulls the "anyone that knows hockey agrees" card which is pretty lame imo.  I mean with that criteria Eric Staal is an ELITE player in the league today because he won an AllStar MVP, Olympic Gold, and a Stanley Cup. 

Yes, Toews is one of the best of the best.  There's no doubt about that fact.  He is easily one of the top 5 all-around players in the NHL, which places him solidly in the league's elite.

If the argument for Yzerman is that he's won individual awards, and was "unlucky" by playing in the Gretzky/Lemieux era, then consider this:

The only individual awards Yzerman has won are 1 Ted Lindsay award, 1 Selke, 1 Conn Smythe and 1 Bill Masterton. He also appeared in the All-Star game in about half his seasons. It took the Wings 13 seasons after drafting Yzerman to win a Cup.

Jonathan Toews has also won a Conn Smythe and has appeared in the All-Star game in half the years that he's been in the league. And afcorse, he won a Cup in his 3rd season.

Now don't misunderstand, I'm not saying Toews is on Yzerman's level today. I'm simply using the logic you presented to compare Jonathan Toews to Steve Yzerman (devil's advocate, if you will).

But let's forget Yzerman for a minute. There are more players that I consider all-time "elite" players who never led the league in anything: Mike Modano, John Bucyk, Gilbert Perreault, Darryl Sittler and Pat Lafontaine to name a few.

He's #20 in Assists, #14 in Goals, #20 in +/-, #10 in Points, #15 in PPG, #29 in PPP, out of the top 30 in SHP, out of the top 30 for Blocked Shots and Hits, #2 in Takeaways, out of the top 30 in FO%, out of the top 30 for S%. 

Top 5 player?  Maybe in Takeaways.

I guess being voted Best Forward at the Olympics....that tournament that features EVERY elite player and plenty of great ones....doesn't mean a thing either.  It must have been a fluke that he was seen as the best player in the world for those two weeks.

Top 5 all-around player.  Period.

Posted by andru2797 on 4/3/2011 11:09:00 AM (view original):
If the argument for Yzerman is that he's won individual awards, and was "unlucky" by playing in the Gretzky/Lemieux era, then consider this:

The only individual awards Yzerman has won are 1 Ted Lindsay award, 1 Selke, 1 Conn Smythe and 1 Bill Masterton. He also appeared in the All-Star game in about half his seasons. It took the Wings 13 seasons after drafting Yzerman to win a Cup.

Jonathan Toews has also won a Conn Smythe and has appeared in the All-Star game in half the years that he's been in the league. And afcorse, he won a Cup in his 3rd season.

Now don't misunderstand, I'm not saying Toews is on Yzerman's level today. I'm simply using the logic you presented to compare Jonathan Toews to Steve Yzerman (devil's advocate, if you will).

But let's forget Yzerman for a minute. There are more players that I consider all-time "elite" players who never led the league in anything: Mike Modano, John Bucyk, Gilbert Perreault, Darryl Sittler and Pat Lafontaine to name a few.

Whiile I appreciate the  devils advocate, you know there is not one formula for who is elite and who is not only that elite status is reserved for the best of the  best.  I said earlier that one could make a case that Yzerman was an elite player.  I think he was and can back that up with both individual and team achievements.  I could also make the argument that Yzerman was not the best of the best because at that time in history Lemieux, Gretzky, and Messier were the best of the best.  It could be argued either way but at least Yzerman has a case.   One can not make a case that Toews is an Elite player based on one strong season, 2010.  He hasn't done enough.  I said earlier that Ovi is an Elite Player imo and he hasn't won a Stanley Cup - those help in the discussion but they are more of the icing on the cake when determining "Elite Players", but the entire cake when determining "Elite Teams".    

As for those other players ---- ask yourself ---- can you make a strong argument for them being elite (awards, consistently top of the leaderboards, etc.) --- now take that argument and try the same for Toews.  No way he matched up to any of the above players.

Posted by mudbone1969 on 4/3/2011 11:18:00 AM (view original):
Top 5 all-around player.  Period.

I get it - my unborn child could make a better argument ;)

Maybe later while I watch the Flyers game I'll throw something up here over the last 5 seasons that will be a side by side comparison of Sid, Ovi, Toews, Sedin, Zetterberg, and a few other players showing G, A, P, S%, GvA, TkA, FO%, and Awards or something of the sort - maybe even playoff success to show leadership? Maybe I'm wrong but I bet the other guys I mentioned will stack up better than Toews.

Well the thing about comparing players is that it's nearly impossible until their careers are over. That's the only time entire careers can be put side by side. Until then all we can do fairly is compare from season to season. Last season, few players in the world enjoyed the success Toews had. This season he's making a serious run at the Hart trophy.

Also, numbers do not tell the whole story. Guys like Toews, Richards, and even Crosby put up good numbers, but perhaps their more important contributions are their leadership and impact on the players around them, their responsible defense and being positionally sound, all of which cannot be measured by any statistic.

In about 15 years we'll be more able to accurately compare side by side the accomplishments of every player in the current generation. Until then, it's almost non-sensical. Having said that, it's one of the most interesting debates in hockey, so why would we stop, lol.

No sense in arguing with someone with almost no clue as to what makes a hockey player elite.  I'll take the opinion of every GM or exec in hockey who would kill to have Toews captain their team for a decade.  The kid is a winner, a leader and an elite player.  If you can't see that, stop watching hockey, because you clearly don't get it.