Posted by mudbone1969 on 4/3/2011 2:15:00 PM (view original):
No sense in arguing with someone with almost no clue as to what makes a hockey player elite.  I'll take the opinion of every GM or exec in hockey who would kill to have Toews captain their team for a decade.  The kid is a winner, a leader and an elite player.  If you can't see that, stop watching hockey, because you clearly don't get it.

Now give those same gms and execs the choice between Crosby and Toews for the next decade.... all of them go Crosby or they lose their job. THAT IS AN ELITE PLAYER.

I can't believe you even think Toews is even close to the player Crosby is. Its insane. I don't have to name call or bash credibility .... your comments do that on their own.

Yes he is, but don't kid yourself that every GM would choose Crosby.  His rep isn't the best amongst the hockey people.  He's a known whiner and complainer...Toews is the model of professionalism.  

Seriously, stop watching hockey if you can't tell Toews is elite..  Go watch tiddly winks or something.

****... I'm going to the blackhawk alumni dinner next week and I guarantee you everyone of them would want both players but if they had to choose they go with Crosby.

I bet you're wrong about that.

I'd even bet you all-day beer at Wrigleyfest that you won't get 100% on Crosby votes there.

Posted by mudbone1969 on 4/3/2011 2:32:00 PM (view original):
I bet you're wrong about that.

That's cause you only watch one team and read that teams bloggers. Chicago myopia. Its no wonder you know no better.

On second thought, here's what you should ask them....ask if Toews is an elite player in the NHL.  That avoids any personal opinion or favoring of one player over another.  That is simply a question of whether Toews has reached elite status.  I'd bet anything you want that well over half of those you asked would agree he is.  That would be after they got dome laughing at you when you say he's not

Posted by mudbone1969 on 4/3/2011 2:33:00 PM (view original):
I'd even bet you all-day beer at Wrigleyfest that you won't get 100% on Crosby votes there.

You are on.... ill ask em. Just got invited Friday and I think its next Monday night.

Posted by moy23 on 4/3/2011 2:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mudbone1969 on 4/3/2011 2:32:00 PM (view original):
I bet you're wrong about that.

That's cause you only watch one team and read that teams bloggers. Chicago myopia. Its no wonder you know no better.

I see plenty of teams and see Toews play every game.  I don't need a huge sample size to know an elite player when I see one.

So do we have a bet?

Posted by mudbone1969 on 4/3/2011 2:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 4/3/2011 2:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mudbone1969 on 4/3/2011 2:32:00 PM (view original):
I bet you're wrong about that.

That's cause you only watch one team and read that teams bloggers. Chicago myopia. Its no wonder you know no better.

I see plenty of teams and see Toews play every game.  I don't need a huge sample size to know an elite player when I see one.

So do we have a bet?

Yeah... but its my original phrasing. Given a choice who would you have captain your team for the next decade... Crosby or Toews? I might not make the game but we'll bet all drinks for golf.

Too much bias to ask if Toews is elite in Chicago.... of course they will say yes. They also think the bears are an elite team because they won the Superbowl in 1985.

LOL on the 1985 Bears comment moy...

Look, at the very least, we can all agree on this: If Jonathan Toews is not an elite player yet, he definitely has the potential to be one. I honestly believe he still has room to grow and can still get better. If in 10 years from now Toews is in the top 10 in league scoring for most of those seasons, has 2-3 Stanley Cups and maybe 6 or 7 All-Star appearances, there can be no doubt that he's an elite player.

The argument that he doesn't "lead the league" doesn't hold water because as long as Sid and Ovie are healthy, they will be leading in goals/points every year, kind of the way Mario and Wayne did. They dominated the league, but that didn't mean that guys like Adam Oates, Pat Lafontaine, Joe Sakic and Steve Yzerman weren't elite players.

Right now, he is already an elite leader, elite faceoff man and elite clutch performer. Once his game matures to the level where he can consistently put up leading offensive numbers, he'll be an elite, complete player. Sid has already done that in spades, and that's why I don't think Toews is at Sid's level yet. Crosby is not a whiner muddy. That argument is about 3-4 seasons past it's relevance.

From what I hear and read, Crosby is maligned all over the league as being a whiner and complainer.  He's an immense talent, but he has the rep. 

Toews can and will improve, I agree, but he has been hailed as a special player since he was a junior.  His potential has come to fruition as one of the elite players in the league.  Look at his accomplishments and make the argument he's not elite.....you'll lose. Gold medalist in the following tourneys...2005 World U-17 Hockey Challenge (leading scorer in tourney), 2006 & 2007 World Junior Tournament, 2007 World Championships and 2010 Olympics (voted tourney's best forward).  Silver medalist in 2008 World Championships.  2010 Stanley Cup champion, where he won the Conn Smythe trophy.  He's the youngest member of the Triple Gold Club .  Two time NHL All-Star in 3 seasons (no A/S game in 2010).   The guy is a championship-level player and leader.  If that doesn't say "elite", then nothing will.

Posted by mudbone1969 on 4/3/2011 4:45:00 PM (view original):
From what I hear and read, Crosby is maligned all over the league as being a whiner and complainer.  He's an immense talent, but he has the rep. 

Toews can and will improve, I agree, but he has been hailed as a special player since he was a junior.  His potential has come to fruition as one of the elite players in the league.  Look at his accomplishments and make the argument he's not elite.....you'll lose. Gold medalist in the following tourneys...2005 World U-17 Hockey Challenge (leading scorer in tourney), 2006 & 2007 World Junior Tournament, 2007 World Championships and 2010 Olympics (voted tourney's best forward).  Silver medalist in 2008 World Championships.  2010 Stanley Cup champion, where he won the Conn Smythe trophy.  He's the youngest member of the Triple Gold Club .  Two time NHL All-Star in 3 seasons (no A/S game in 2010).   The guy is a championship-level player and leader.  If that doesn't say "elite", then nothing will.

Did you just copy/paste wiki? Nice. Go copy/paste Eric lindros next and tell me he was an elite nhler. He tore up the ohl and chl.