Is defense at 2b really important? Topic

jvford
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http://www.whatifsports.com/HBD/Pages/Main/worldsnapshot.aspx

Right now, average for all 3B is 3.331.

Before the update, it was around 2.10.
3/19/2010 1:59 PM
MikeT23
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I said a 3B with a 2.26 RF would be hurting a team because the average is around 3. JVF, despite his obvious desire to not argue, pointed out that crabby's 3B was used a couple of season's ago so the whole point is moot.

Unfortunately, it isn't. A 3B with a 2.26 RF is hurting his team. End of story.
3/19/2010 2:01 PM
jvford
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So I guess you're now saying that CURRENTLY a 3B with a 2.26 RF would be hurting his team, even though you originally said that crabby's 3B was hurting his team. Gotcha.

While I believe that a LH 3B would hurt a team defensively, you could not determine that from the RF of crabby's guy.
3/19/2010 2:11 PM
MikeT23
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I'm saying a 2.26 RF is hurting his team if the world average is around 3. What part of this is incomprehensible to you? That last 2-3 pages(before your non-argument because you don't want to argue) was all about figuring out if a defender is hurting your team. I suggest RF was a good starting point because it manifests itself rather quickly and a couple of other owners felt RF was useless. We explained our positions and then you showed up to not argue.
3/19/2010 2:17 PM
jvford
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 3/17/2010
How so? The average 3B makes 3 plays per game. His LH 3B made 2.26.

Plays not made by player A aren't made by player B. They end up as something. What do you think it is?

See? You were speaking specifically, not generally.

And you were specifically wrong.
3/19/2010 2:29 PM
MikeT23
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How many more pages of not arguing are you going to go?

Really? The average 3B does make 3 plays per game. 3.331 per you. His LH 3B made 2.26. You can look it up.

So where was I wrong?
3/19/2010 2:58 PM
jvford
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I consider this education of the uninitiated, not arguing.

crabby said he used a LH 3B with no ill effects

You said that his 2.26 RF was below the league average of 3.00, so blah blah blah

League average at the time was more like 2.10

Conclusions:

1.) You can't determine how detrimental his LH 3B was by RF because his LH 3B had an above average RF.

2.) You would rather try to turn something into an argument than just say "oh ****, I forgot about the update".

3.) You're either really, really stubborn or really, really dim.

Now go ahead and post some more of your BS. I have a meeting, so I'm done with you.
3/19/2010 3:14 PM
MikeT23
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2.26 is below the league average of 3.

I've already said I didn't look at what year he used him. But I CLEARLY stated that a 3B with a RF of 2.26 was harming a team because the league average is closer to 3.

Nonetheless, the pages that you determined to be "moot" weren't even discussing crabby's specific player. We were discussing the merits of using RF to determine fielding liability. Which, by the way, makes you wrong or a dumbass. Either way, your entire existence in this thread was to argue despite your claims that you didn't want to argue.

You're one miserable bastard, aren't you? It must be a northeast thing. Was it a rough winter?
3/19/2010 3:23 PM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 3/17/2010
That's why I said an "average" 3B would have an RF of 3ish and a 3B with 2.26 was costing his team 119+ hits a season.

Plays not made by a certain position are not made by anyone. Therefore, they become hits.



Page 4.
3/19/2010 3:24 PM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 3/18/2010
Because RF is a quick "How does my guy compare to the world?" reference. As I said, there are many, many factors at play but, if a play is way off the world average in RF, he has a problem of some sort. If a guy is a couple of +/- plays ahead/behind the world average, it don't think it indicates much at all. That said, fielding percentage is another quick reference guide.

In short, it may take half a season for a problem to expose itself using +/- but RF/Fldg% will show up quickly.





Page 5.
3/19/2010 3:26 PM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By jvford on 3/19/2010Of course since this LH 3B thing happened two seasons ago (before the defense update when an average RF at 3b was around 2.00), the last two pages of this thread are moot

Page 5.
3/19/2010 3:27 PM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 3/19/2010
I could say it's all relevant because a big difference between your player and league average is always a warning sign but that would just be providing you with the opportunity to argue that you're apparently seeking.


Page 5.
3/19/2010 3:27 PM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By jvford on 3/19/2010
Not interested in arguing. Just pointing out that if the league average RF is actually around 2.00, then there is no obvious warning sign if a player has a RF of 2.26.

For example: Sean Simontacchi had a RF of 2.02 two seasons ago.



Page 5. When you started digging into my teams in the interest of not arguing.
3/19/2010 3:28 PM
plague
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Quote: Originally posted by crabman26 on 3/17/2010
Quote: Originally posted by schedule1 on 3/17/20101 in RF is 1 play per game, so it's 162.
Interesting...learn something new every day...

While the difference between 2 and 3 is 1 play per 27 outs, that does not mean that he is responsible for 162 more hits per season, that just means he fields 1 less play per 27 outs, he might not be getting the same amount of balls hit his directions as other 3rd basemen. Maybe your team has pitchers who strikeout more batters than the average team, or maybe your team is filled with flyball pitchers, or pitchers who on average cause hitters to hit the ball towards the right more often than the league average, maybe your 2nd base/SS combo turns a lot of double plays or visa versa, maybe the rest of your team is excellent defensively creating more outs than most teams giving you less chances to get a out. Range Factor is a fun statistic, but it is not a science when judging the value of a player at defense and it has a large margin of error when deciding who is a good defensive player.
3/21/2010 4:43 AM
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Is defense at 2b really important? Topic
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