Player for cash discussion Topic

Posted by shipoopi on 7/26/2012 2:32:00 PM (view original):
"Deciding whether something is fair or unfair is the reason vetoes exist."

No it isn't.  It is to prevent unethical trading.  If two owners decide a trade helps them, then who the hell do you think you are telling them they aren't allowed to trade?
So now you're deciding why vetoes exist?    Did you pay extra for that?
7/26/2012 2:59 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/26/2012 1:25:00 PM (view original):
Anyway, owners are free to veto for any reason.   They can't say "I think Owner A is an *** so I veto all his deals" as that is against the FPG.  But they can say "Looks unbalanced to me" and be done with it.   They can explain their veto or ignore your demands for an explanation. 

But, at the end of the day, if 10 owners veto a deal, it probably deserves to be vetoed.    Get 1/3 of the world to agree on anything is hard.
This.
7/26/2012 3:02 PM
I do find it funny that the vast majority of what I missed was:

"No, no, no.  You aren't allowed to decide the value in a trade.  Those guys paid their $25 and deserve the right to make decisions for their team" while completely ignoring that 30 other owners paid $25 and the right to determine value in a trade comes with  that purchase.
7/26/2012 3:05 PM
I guess we need shipoops to tell us all EXACTLY what our $25 gives us the right to do.  I thought I knew, but apparently not.
7/26/2012 3:10 PM
I wish I'd known before this.  I feel like I've wasted 100 seasons.
7/26/2012 3:12 PM
The thing about vetoing a trade for reasons other than collusion or to protect new owners is, as shipoopi has mentioned, that other owners are telling the trading owners how they should be running their teams.  It's that just they are doing so through veto power.

Say I have a stud, MVP caliber CF that I'm looking to move.  The best offer I get is for spare parts.  Maybe I decide that those spare parts are more valuable to my organization than the stud CF.  That's MY call.  Regardless if it's a bad call, it's my call to make.  So I accept the trade.  Then it inevitably gets vetoed.  I've now been told by the vetoing owners that MY decision on what I feel is best for my team is wrong, even though that's a decision only I can make.  

You shouldn't be legislating owners personal evaluations, you should be legislating moves that actively harm the world on the whole.  If I'm dead set on moving that CF, and I'm also dead set that a deal for spare parts is the best move I can make, what am I supposed to do when the world won't let me make the move that I deem to be the best for my organization?  That doesn't happen in real life and I'd like to think that HBD should strive to be as realistic as possible.  
7/26/2012 3:17 PM
It's not just that.  It's protecting the integrity of the world. 

As has been stated, you don't play in a vacuum.  30 other owners are affected by trades.   As I mentioned, I have no say in how bad, you alone, mess up your team.  You can make bad signings, dumb promotions, poor draft choices, etc, etc, with impunity.   However, when you drag a second owner into your quagmire of a franchise, WifS gives me the ability to have a say.   I have to allow you to wreck one franchise but I can attempt to stop you from building a second franchise up while you do so.

As for real life comparisons, it doesn't work.   Poor decisions in MLB are met with loss of employment.   In HBD, it's either plunk down another $25 or move on to another world.  Nothing gained, nothing lost. 
7/26/2012 3:22 PM
Alley,

As I've tried to reiterate many times on our board. It is not about telling a team what the value is for 5mil. Its about how that 5mil impacts the rest of the owners.
7/26/2012 3:24 PM
It should also be mentioned that NO ONE knows what's in the mind of two owners trading.   The deal you seek kind of reeks of collusion, giving up 5m for a replacement level player than can be found on the scrap heap FA pile so the other owner can sign a first round pick, but only two owners really know.   I assume all 32 owners do not know one another in the real world(and could still collude even if they did) so one has to judge trades on face value.    As I said, your payroll, prospect and draft history are public record.   It's not hard to figure out what you are doing.
7/26/2012 3:26 PM
Posted by alleyviper on 7/26/2012 3:17:00 PM (view original):
The thing about vetoing a trade for reasons other than collusion or to protect new owners is, as shipoopi has mentioned, that other owners are telling the trading owners how they should be running their teams.  It's that just they are doing so through veto power.

Say I have a stud, MVP caliber CF that I'm looking to move.  The best offer I get is for spare parts.  Maybe I decide that those spare parts are more valuable to my organization than the stud CF.  That's MY call.  Regardless if it's a bad call, it's my call to make.  So I accept the trade.  Then it inevitably gets vetoed.  I've now been told by the vetoing owners that MY decision on what I feel is best for my team is wrong, even though that's a decision only I can make.  

You shouldn't be legislating owners personal evaluations, you should be legislating moves that actively harm the world on the whole.  If I'm dead set on moving that CF, and I'm also dead set that a deal for spare parts is the best move I can make, what am I supposed to do when the world won't let me make the move that I deem to be the best for my organization?  That doesn't happen in real life and I'd like to think that HBD should strive to be as realistic as possible.  

Very bad trades DO harm the world as a whole, whether they were done in good faith or not.  If you don't believe that, I'm sure we can find some examples of situations that have arisen in worlds where that attitude prevailed.

7/26/2012 3:28 PM
Posted by alleyviper on 7/26/2012 3:17:00 PM (view original):
The thing about vetoing a trade for reasons other than collusion or to protect new owners is, as shipoopi has mentioned, that other owners are telling the trading owners how they should be running their teams.  It's that just they are doing so through veto power.

Say I have a stud, MVP caliber CF that I'm looking to move.  The best offer I get is for spare parts.  Maybe I decide that those spare parts are more valuable to my organization than the stud CF.  That's MY call.  Regardless if it's a bad call, it's my call to make.  So I accept the trade.  Then it inevitably gets vetoed.  I've now been told by the vetoing owners that MY decision on what I feel is best for my team is wrong, even though that's a decision only I can make.  

You shouldn't be legislating owners personal evaluations, you should be legislating moves that actively harm the world on the whole.  If I'm dead set on moving that CF, and I'm also dead set that a deal for spare parts is the best move I can make, what am I supposed to do when the world won't let me make the move that I deem to be the best for my organization?  That doesn't happen in real life and I'd like to think that HBD should strive to be as realistic as possible.  
If the stud CF your trading for a handful of spare parts is going to a team that is already stacked, while YOU may think that's best for your organization, can't you see that OTHERS may not think that it's best for the world?

What if your bad trade cripples your team so badly that you decide to up and leave at the end of the season?  Now the world has one team that's even more stacked that it originally was, and a second team that's been crippled in need of a new owner.  Don't you see that the other 30 owners might see that as harming the world with competitive imbalance?
7/26/2012 3:28 PM
Three people saying the same thing in different ways it pretty annoying.   Especially when two of them are from PA, Home of Evil.
7/26/2012 3:32 PM
Loss of employment may ultimately come for a GM who makes poor decisions but a.) that doesn't stop the poor decisions from happening prior to the unemployment and b.) it doesn't assume the new GM will be better (just ask Seattle fans).  

When the Yankees acquired Bobby Abreu from the Phillies, there wasn't a soul in the baseball world who thought Philly got anything close to fair value for Abreu.  In fact, the four players they got for Abreu (and Cory Lidle!) have combined for 67 major league games played.  It was an absolute dumpster fire of a trade.  And yes, that trade affected the other 28 teams in the league.  The Yankees got MUCH better, the other AL teams were adversely affected by the Yankees' improvement, the NL missed out on a chance to acquire Abreu, etc. etc.  It was an awful, awful, AWFUL, trade.  And there have been countless similar traded before and since that one.  And not a single one was struck down by the league.  Because it was up to the two teams involved in the trade discussions to determine if they were getting fair value on their end.  Nobody said "wait, Philly is making a really ****** trade here!" and stepped in.  Nobody made an "attempt to stop the Yankees from building up their franchise."  The two teams came to an agreement and that was that. 

If the stud CF your trading for a handful of spare parts is going to a team that is already stacked, while YOU may think that's best for your organization, can't you see that OTHERS may not think that it's best for the world?

What if your bad trade cripples your team so badly that you decide to up and leave at the end of the season?  Now the world has one team that's even more stacked that it originally was, and a second team that's been crippled in need of a new owner.  Don't you see that the other 30 owners might see that as harming the world with competitive imbalance?

I'll flip it around: what if the only team that I find to be a reasonable trade partner is a stacked team?  Am I forbidden from dealing with that team simply because you don't want that team to get better?  Should I be forced to sit on my pieces because I can't find any other trade partner I want to deal with? 

As for someone leaving a team after a crippling move, that's what vetting owners is for.  It's pretty easy to tell when you look at a HBD owner what kind of track record they have and if there's any risk of them doing something like that.  I'll grant you that if you were to veto a trade like that made by an owner with a shady track record it would be more reasonable.  But if it were someone like Mike who has a long history playing these games, who everyone has a pretty good feel for, I'd let it go without a second thought because I don't see him as a risk of jumping ship because one thing went wrong (and I'd let it go because he has such a long history that, even if I see a trade as terrible for him, I'm guessing he sees something in the player evaluations that I don't see).
7/26/2012 3:42 PM
Again, we're sure the Yankees and the Phils both FELT they were doing the best for their teams.   Their jobs are at stake.

What's at stake in HBD?  

Do you really not think there are any bad deals in HBD that are, in fact, collusion?
7/26/2012 3:44 PM
I love threads like this because they really highlight Superfund sites like Mike Greenwell world.
7/26/2012 3:46 PM
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