Posted by gillispie1 on 6/10/2020 3:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 6/10/2020 2:26:00 PM (view original):
For the love of God, no one quote that post by poopshoe. The processor in my phone might explode

can we like... can we recognize that even though shoe is sometimes really stubborn, that other times hes one of the most constructive posters on these boards, and at least is deserving of enough respect to address without the poopshoe stuff? if it came across as a friendly joking type nickname... that would be different. and perhaps that is the intention but i seriously doubt it.

and shoe - i have said more than my fair share of not so nice things about seble, and sometimes even the nice things have turned out not so nice like the time i insisted a really, really dumb CS response must have come from some incredibly stoned minimum wage teenager and people should stop ripping on seble for it... you know, carrying that on for my standard length... and then seble came to the thread to explicitly clarify it was him. so i am quite sure i'm in no position to throw stones here, glass houses and all, but overall i think at a minimum, seble tries. he answers a lot of questions beyond what i think should be expected, even if sometimes those answers are objectively horrible and drastically worse than declining to answer. he puts in the elbow grease to deal with all these annoying 1 off situations and that *definitely* was not happening before he took over. so even though you don't really like how he handled it, i definitely take exception to calling him a liar and an intentional dodger. i think he tries enough but like the rest of us is an extremely imperfect being. the end result of what he does is sometimes good and sometimes ****, but effort wise, i maintain he's both a major improvement over what came before, and above average effort wise and probably competence wise as well, compared to usual customer support. i think you underestimate how annoying it must be for him to be both a lead developer AND the person who deals with front line customer support issues. that sounds awful. i'll take the chair, please!

Don’t be too hard on Benis. (snicker) I did provoke him, using the word schadenfreude, twice now, and italicizing it both times.

I know you’re going to think I’m splitting hairs, but this stuff matters to me. I didn’t call seble a liar. I said I am highly critical of his CS response to me, because of the casual lies. And saying it is “not possible” to offer me the kind of assistance he apparently gave wronoj was very obviously a lie.

I give seble credit when when I think he deserves it. And I call him incompetent when I think he deserves it. I would be an incompetent CS manager too, FWIW. Am I too rigid and extreme? Probably sometimes. This is an Internet game I pay to play for fun, so I’ll be who I am and what I want.

And Sidenote for dogggg, yes I pay to play. I don’t play on credits. As I’ve explained before, I don’t play the game in the most efficient way possible to maximize my ROI. I have fun. So I take rebuilds routinely. In fact, that’s why I didn’t get KU back. When I took KU, it was a massive train wreck - those first 3 seasons really hurt my resume. There was one usable returning player, and my first classes were peppered with D2 players so I had 8-9 guys to put on the floor. I gave up probably at least $45 worth of credits in moving from OSU, which was a title caliber team when I left, to KU, hoping that the bump in baseline prestige would eventually pay off (spoiler, it didn’t).

Posted by topdogggbm on 6/10/2020 5:21:00 PM (view original):
Ahhh makes sense. Yes I bombed my first season at D1 and went 5-22 so I dropped AFTER that. I thought you meant the things I listed earlier. My errrrrrrrrrrrrrr

FWIW I think you're missing something not doing a D prestige D1 rebuild.

I find it to be a bunch of fun. The joy I got from my first 5 star recruits were awesome because I had to build up and land them myself.

'I blame seble in my situation because of the lies, the condescending lies, and the **** you approach to customer service he took with me when I kept pressing him on the lies.'

- shoe, if you are making the case that this statement refers to seble as a person who tells lies - multiple - in an unrepentant manner - but that technically, you see some difference between that and calling him a 'lair'... i'm not going to argue with you. i can only tell you how it comes across. if you are making a distinction with a difference, i'd perhaps be curious to know what it is, but i really don't want to argue semantics at this level of granularity. IMO, i do not believe seble was telling lies, and that there is some distinction between the two cases you are missing (such as whether or not the 2nd job had yet been applied to at the time he stepped in - which has been a factor in how seble responds to these going back years). if you'd like to explain the distinction you are making, i'll listen with an open mind for one more round, but i have to say that i don't think that is productive for anyone.

Posted by cubcub113 on 6/10/2020 5:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 6/10/2020 5:21:00 PM (view original):
Ahhh makes sense. Yes I bombed my first season at D1 and went 5-22 so I dropped AFTER that. I thought you meant the things I listed earlier. My errrrrrrrrrrrrrr

FWIW I think you're missing something not doing a D prestige D1 rebuild.

I find it to be a bunch of fun. The joy I got from my first 5 star recruits were awesome because I had to build up and land them myself.

7.0.3

agreed. low d1 is a unique animal, and i think its helpful to live in the dustbin for a while, and to see what is possible... then when you get up in the mid range and start fighting for 5*s and stuff, you know what you can supplement them with to create a quality but achievable team. its really easy to get caught up in the trap of looking upwards only, when you get to B prestige or so. you can fight up some, but not like, for every player.

Gil, it’s the same difference between criticizing the dumb things a person does, and calling that person a moron. Maybe you don’t make that distinction. I do.

Posted by shoe3 on 6/10/2020 6:09:00 PM (view original):
Gil, it’s the same difference between criticizing the dumb things a person does, and calling that person a moron. Maybe you don’t make that distinction. I do.

alright, thats fair, but i hope you can see that such an approach is not universal. everyone does dumb things, but not everyone is an idiot. not all the worlds in our language works the same way. if i say, this dude over here, he committed one murder - there's no daylight between that and calling him a murderer.

i suppose how that works with calling someone a liar is somewhere in the middle and is open to interpretation, for me personally if you are saying someone lies, repeatedly, in an unrepentant manner - i see either no or extremely little daylight between that and calling them a liar. however, perhaps my personal bias is coloring my perception here. certainly everyone lies some (counting white lies), but that doesn't make everyone a liar, so i'll take what you are saying at face value and accept there's a difference there in your worldview. as a result, i amend my earlier statement to 'i take exception with referring to seble's action in these cases as him telling lies'. my belief is that there is a difference between your situation and whatever situation you were referring to, and that for whatever reason, your communications with seble failed to obviate this difference.

Posted by gillispie1 on 6/10/2020 6:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 6/10/2020 6:09:00 PM (view original):
Gil, it’s the same difference between criticizing the dumb things a person does, and calling that person a moron. Maybe you don’t make that distinction. I do.

alright, thats fair, but i hope you can see that such an approach is not universal. everyone does dumb things, but not everyone is an idiot. not all the worlds in our language works the same way. if i say, this dude over here, he committed one murder - there's no daylight between that and calling him a murderer.

i suppose how that works with calling someone a liar is somewhere in the middle and is open to interpretation, for me personally if you are saying someone lies, repeatedly, in an unrepentant manner - i see either no or extremely little daylight between that and calling them a liar. however, perhaps my personal bias is coloring my perception here. certainly everyone lies some (counting white lies), but that doesn't make everyone a liar, so i'll take what you are saying at face value and accept there's a difference there in your worldview. as a result, i amend my earlier statement to 'i take exception with referring to seble's action in these cases as him telling lies'. my belief is that there is a difference between your situation and whatever situation you were referring to, and that for whatever reason, your communications with seble failed to obviate this difference.

Yeah, and I’ll preface this next part by reiterating that I’m very glad wronoj got his job back, I think CS did what it was supposed to do in that case. This is not me being bitter or resentful that I didn’t get the same result.

It doesnt really matter to me what the specific circumstances were. I’m not suggesting that seble necessarily stepped in over someone else’s application. Though if he did, great. He did undeniably do something he didn’t do for me, though, which was amend the process to quickly facilitate transfer when robin agreed to move. Wronoj was “not qualified” for either job, remember. So at very least, there is some movement from a week ago. Again, great.

As I said to doggg, I’d be much less critical if his response to me acknowledged the problems with the system, and pledged to work on it, even if he didn’t know exactly how that would work yet. He ends up telling me he can’t do something he clearly can, prioritizes not getting someone’s hopes up over helping me not lose a dream job because of a Hell weekend, and then uses the situation to try to pitch me on buying 10 packs.

Im not saying seble is a liar. I’m saying he gave me a really poor customer service experience. If this recent episode indicates he’s improved, wonderful.

Oh and the other thing, in the middle of my thread, there’s this period where suddenly my ticket is gone. And I have to open a new ticket asking where the other one is. They tell me it’s moved to WhatIfSports. I’m like, aren’t I on WhatIfSports?? This is where clicking the Customer Service takes me. If you’re just going to move my ticket, please tell me where to access it, so I don’t miss anything important.

I ask the LeagueSafe CS. Nothing. Seble (presumably) steps in again on the new ticket. Also doesn’t answer when I ask him about it. I figure it out myself eventually, on Safari I am automatically redirected to LeagueSafe CS. Everytime. If I want to use WhatIfSports CS, I have to access through Chrome.

So yeah, that didn’t help my impression either.

Posted by shoe3 on 6/10/2020 6:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 6/10/2020 6:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 6/10/2020 6:09:00 PM (view original):
Gil, it’s the same difference between criticizing the dumb things a person does, and calling that person a moron. Maybe you don’t make that distinction. I do.

alright, thats fair, but i hope you can see that such an approach is not universal. everyone does dumb things, but not everyone is an idiot. not all the worlds in our language works the same way. if i say, this dude over here, he committed one murder - there's no daylight between that and calling him a murderer.

i suppose how that works with calling someone a liar is somewhere in the middle and is open to interpretation, for me personally if you are saying someone lies, repeatedly, in an unrepentant manner - i see either no or extremely little daylight between that and calling them a liar. however, perhaps my personal bias is coloring my perception here. certainly everyone lies some (counting white lies), but that doesn't make everyone a liar, so i'll take what you are saying at face value and accept there's a difference there in your worldview. as a result, i amend my earlier statement to 'i take exception with referring to seble's action in these cases as him telling lies'. my belief is that there is a difference between your situation and whatever situation you were referring to, and that for whatever reason, your communications with seble failed to obviate this difference.

Yeah, and I’ll preface this next part by reiterating that I’m very glad wronoj got his job back, I think CS did what it was supposed to do in that case. This is not me being bitter or resentful that I didn’t get the same result.

It doesnt really matter to me what the specific circumstances were. I’m not suggesting that seble necessarily stepped in over someone else’s application. Though if he did, great. He did undeniably do something he didn’t do for me, though, which was amend the process to quickly facilitate transfer when robin agreed to move. Wronoj was “not qualified” for either job, remember. So at very least, there is some movement from a week ago. Again, great.

As I said to doggg, I’d be much less critical if his response to me acknowledged the problems with the system, and pledged to work on it, even if he didn’t know exactly how that would work yet. He ends up telling me he can’t do something he clearly can, prioritizes not getting someone’s hopes up over helping me not lose a dream job because of a Hell weekend, and then uses the situation to try to pitch me on buying 10 packs.

Im not saying seble is a liar. I’m saying he gave me a really poor customer service experience. If this recent episode indicates he’s improved, wonderful.

this is where we disagree - and what i was hoping to get down to once we dispatched with the semantics - i disagree that he undeniably did anything for wronoj that he didn't do for you. i disagree seble told you he told you something he clearly could do. i disagree he lies to get out of CS work or that he did so in your case. i disagree that his stance has changed at all over the past few weeks.

in wronoj's case, how do you know that seble didn't step in after robin got the job, but before there was an application to robin's old job? i do not believe you know that and as such, i think your above statements are invalid.

my goal here is to help you understand seble's policy, so that you do not take the events in your case so personally. seble's policy, as i understand it, has been fixed and consistently applied for years - and it is that he 1) will not undo the applications of any existing coaches (this is based on a complaint from years ago by such a coach), and 2) he will only swap coaches if all parties agree.

the unfortunate consequence of this is that timing is a major factor. if you got the first coach to agree to move, and seble had this confirmation in hand before the first coach in your scenario's old job got applied to - and seble was around and available when this set of circumstances occurred - i believe, strongly, that he would have put you back. as such, i believe, strongly, that this was not the case. in wronoj's case, i believe seble necessarily was aware that 1) wronoj wanted his job back, and 2) robin was willing to move back, based on confirmation from robin himself - at a time when the 2nd job in question (robin's old job) was as of yet not applied to.

before you respond if you agree, do you understand the distinction i am making here? second, if you have any evidence to the contrary, i would be interested in seeing it, as i have observed seble's hand in these matters for years and have assessed it to be extremely steady.

Yes, I understand the distinction you are drawing. I specifically said I was not addressing that distinction. I know what his policy is. It’s a bad policy. If it’s based on a complaint, it was a dumb complaint (made by a complete ******* tool, I suspect).

It is possible for him to do what I asked.

Moreover, amending the process, overlooking wronoj’s unqualified position in order to quickly facilitate, is exactly the kind of thing I would hope for. It is not identical, but it is the *kind* of approach I was hoping for.

Posted by shoe3 on 6/10/2020 7:00:00 PM (view original):
Yes, I understand the distinction you are drawing. I specifically said I was not addressing that distinction. I know what his policy is. It’s a bad policy. If it’s based on a complaint, it was a dumb complaint (made by a complete ******* tool, I suspect).

It is possible for him to do what I asked.

Moreover, amending the process, overlooking wronoj’s unqualified position in order to quickly facilitate, is exactly the kind of thing I would hope for. It is not identical, but it is the *kind* of approach I was hoping for.

"Hey! Don't say I was calling Seble a liar even though I started multiple times he lies... Which may or may not be the exact defintion of a liar. But this other person who - I don't even know that may have complained once based upon their opinion - is a complete ******* tool".

And seriously, explain again how just adjusting the application process to give preference to a coach trying to return harms anyone? If that’s the policy, who gets hurt? If someone is applying for a school that has just been vacated, it’s obvious that there’s a possibility the last guy just forgot to renew, right? There is no harm, if that is the process. No one loses something they worked for. No one’s satisfaction tanks.

Customer service is not about rigid policies and cold hard “fairness,” as if fairness means always doing the same thing, even when that thing produces massive negative net satisfaction. Customer service is about trying to fix the problem for the person with a problem without causing harm to others. That *isn’t* always possible, I get that. But in these cases, it was.

And the bottom line, again, is that an easy, simple, structural change means CS not having to deal with this so often.

Posted by Benis on 6/10/2020 7:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 6/10/2020 7:00:00 PM (view original):
Yes, I understand the distinction you are drawing. I specifically said I was not addressing that distinction. I know what his policy is. It’s a bad policy. If it’s based on a complaint, it was a dumb complaint (made by a complete ******* tool, I suspect).

It is possible for him to do what I asked.

Moreover, amending the process, overlooking wronoj’s unqualified position in order to quickly facilitate, is exactly the kind of thing I would hope for. It is not identical, but it is the *kind* of approach I was hoping for.

"Hey! Don't say I was calling Seble a liar even though I started multiple times he lies... Which may or may not be the exact defintion of a liar. But this other person who - I don't even know that may have complained once based upon their opinion - is a complete ******* tool".

“Poopshoe, blurbs blurbs blurby blurb, POOPSHOE! giant nerd, blurby blurby blurbs, WTF IS A DICTIONARY?? blurby blurbs blurby WHERE IS MY FRIEND IAN??!? Blurby blurb poopshoe sucks blurby blurb blurb. NUUUUR!”

This is a fun game.

Hell, imagine the customer service ticket

Angry Customer: This game sucks. I applied for the UCLA job, but a guy with the same winning % and one less tournament win in the past 10 seasons got it instead? RRRRRRRAAAAAGGGGGE QUIT!

Customer Service: Ah, maybe you didn’t see the update, we’ve changed the jobs process slightly to give much more credit to a coach returning to their old school. This is so when life happens, and people might not remember to renew in time for whatever reason, they can still get their job back without going through the hassle of trying to coordinate with multiple people, which was frankly a pain in my own ***, so....

AC: This new policy is UNACCEPTABLE! You have to be fair to people who want to take advantage of someone’s misfortune or dumb mistake or whatever. You have stolen from me, sir!

CS: Well no, it’s fine if you stay at your old place. Or if you really want to move, you can apply for other jobs. We’ve also removed the limit on job applications, so....

AC: Unfair. You have damaged me grievously. Good day!

CS: (to audience) Well that guy is a complete ******* tool.

Posted by gillispie1 on 6/10/2020 4:39:00 PM (view original):

2) neither of us touched on this but i agree with other folks that being not qualified for a job you just had, after losing your job, is unpleasant from a user standpoint. its realistic, but i don't like it. the issue is a little bigger than that too. roughly, i think you should be qualified based on the higher of your current resume or your resume from your last job change, which would give people a little buffer room if they have a bad go of things, pick up a job and get busy and bail before they get to rebuild, forget to renew, etc - we all know taking a new job trashes your resume, so most people only do it when they plan to stay, but sometimes plans go awry. i wouldn't necessarily extend this same benefit to the competition part of jobs, maybe halfway or something along those lines - but bottom line, i think the penalty coaches face, on qualifications, from taking a rebuild - it feels too harsh and not user friendly, to me.

I think we're on the same page; we just draw the line of success, relative to the school's baseline prestige, at a different point. Kansas is simply going to have different expectations than Nebraska.