I think if I was forced to have to keep with Walton or Young for their entire careers I'd go with Young. At least he'd almost always be ready to play and would help me somewhat in about half of his seasons. With Walton he'd either be injured, or well below average 69% of the time.

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 2:02:00 PM (view original):
I think if I was forced to have to keep with Walton or Young for their entire careers I'd go with Young. At least he'd almost always be ready to play and would help me somewhat in about half of his seasons. With Walton he'd either be injured, or well below average 69% of the time.

One was literally the best player on a title team. Where would prime Thad Young rank on a title team? Their 8th best player maybe? You really think you’re coming to the right conclusion?

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 2:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 1:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 1:34:00 PM (view original):
This is ridiculous, no offense.

You're not factoring in that by rostering a player, you have to pay them part of your salary cap. You also are taking away a roster spot and minutes from another guy. Think VORP. You’re looking at this as if it’s additive. Minutes are a resource. You can only play 240 minutes per regulation game. When you play an average guy for 30 minutes, that only leaves 210 minutes for you to try to get an advantage on your opponent.

You want (or *should* want) the highest quality minutes. Drafting an MVP caliber player who only plays a few years and then is off your books should be seen as WAY WAY WAY more valuable than a guy who will be “meh” for 20 seasons, while also collecting a paycheck for 20 seasons, taking up a roster spot for 20 seasons, etc.

You should rethink what you want to measure, imo.

My rankings are not made for playing this sim. And certainly not for this league, where there is no salary cap. If this league was real life trading would be a lot different. First off in real life you don't get to know ahead of time that the player's season will be bad, or heavily injury prone.

As I said, the teams in this league and in this sim in general are far better than an average real life team. None of us is gonna play someone with an eFG in the low 40s or worse, but lots of those guys play in real life. And in real life you can't just cut Walton from your roster if he's gonna miss the season. You have to put him on the injury list and pay him his full salary for the season. He played 13 seasons. If you take him for his entire career in real life it would be 14 seasons. And you'd have to keep him and keep paying his salary. He only played 4 fewer seasons than Young, and surely was higher paid for his era and than Young was paid in his era.

I wouldn't want either of these guys in this league. I think I would be able to do better than Young would be in most of his seasons, and I don't like the odds of pulling a real useful Walton season. Even in his 2 great seasons he only played 2264 and 1929 minutes. That works out to 25.6 minutes per game across 164 games.

I wasn’t walking about WIS, I was talking about the NBA. You are aware there’s a salary cap in the NBA, no?

Forget your rankings. Just think about if you were at the podium and your choices were a 21-year old Bill Walton, and a 21-year old Thaddeus Young. Even knowing that Walton will only give you ~4 good years, you are really going with Thad?! Does that sound right to you?

Of course if I don't know anything about the future I'm taking Walton. But if I do know exactly what each guy's career would be and how much I will have to pay each of them over the course of that full career, I'm taking Young. Remember, in this example you don't have the option of dropping or trading either guy. You must keep them and pay them for their entire career, and play them the number of minutes they actually played.

In the 83-84 season you have to play Walton 1476 minutes with his WS/48 of .074. Young was only that bad in 3 of his 17 seasons.

Here are the top 13 seasons combined for each player going by win shares. Young has 10 of the 13 best seasons.

1 - Walton - 10.2
2 - Walton - 8.4
3 - Young - 7.4
4 - Young - 6.9
5 - Young - 6.3
6 - Young - 6.2
7 - Young - 5.5
8 - Young - 5.5
8 - Young - 5.1
9 - Walton - 5.0
10 - Young - 4.6
11 - Young - 4.5
12 - Young - 4.1

Hey man, I mean this in the nicest way possible. No one is going to take you seriously if you try to convince everyone that Thaddeus Young is better all-time than Bill Walton, or that Stockton> Magic, so you might as well save yourself some time and not write 85 paragraphs per day about it.

also your obsession w Magic's trouser trout is a little creepy

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 2:25:00 PM (view original):
Hey man, I mean this in the nicest way possible. No one is going to take you seriously if you try to convince everyone that Thaddeus Young is better all-time than Bill Walton, or that Stockton> Magic, so you might as well save yourself some time and not write 85 paragraphs per day about it.

When did I ever use the word "better?"

Young created more value than Walton did, and Stockton created more value than Magic did. Magic missed 4 full seasons ages 32-35. From age 32-25 Stockton had 48.5 win shares. From ages 32-25 Magic had ZERO win shares.

Magic's career WS/48 is ,225, but Stockton was not exactly bad at .209.

So the question becomes do you want Magic for 33245 minutes, or do you want Stockton at 93% as good as Magic for 43.6 % more minutes.

I'm going for the 43.6% more minutes of the 93% as good superstar. These "eye test" guys think that Magic is much more better than Stockton than he actually was because Stockton is not flashy at all and did not play on teams that were as successful as Magic's team was.

Interesting, my understanding is that most teams are shooting for titles

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 3:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 2:25:00 PM (view original):
Hey man, I mean this in the nicest way possible. No one is going to take you seriously if you try to convince everyone that Thaddeus Young is better all-time than Bill Walton, or that Stockton> Magic, so you might as well save yourself some time and not write 85 paragraphs per day about it.

When did I ever use the word "better?"

Young created more value than Walton did, and Stockton created more value than Magic did. Magic missed 4 full seasons ages 32-35. From age 32-25 Stockton had 48.5 win shares. From ages 32-25 Magic had ZERO win shares.

Magic's career WS/48 is ,225, but Stockton was not exactly bad at .209.

So the question becomes do you want Magic for 33245 minutes, or do you want Stockton at 93% as good as Magic for 43.6 % more minutes.

I'm going for the 43.6% more minutes of the 93% as good superstar. These "eye test" guys think that Magic is much more better than Stockton than he actually was because Stockton is not flashy at all and did not play on teams that were as successful as Magic's team was.

Actually the question is if you would rather prefer paying a player for 12 seasons and for most of those, he’s capable of being the best player on a championship team, or paying a player for 19 seasons and in about half of those, he’s capable of maybe being the 2nd best player on a championship team.

And when Magic is providing zero win shares/retired, you’re also not paying him, meaning you can allocate his share of the salary cap and minutes to another player like Van Exel (or Shaq)

Like, I just want to understand. You created a “stat” that says that Thaddeus Young > Bill Walton, and you said “yes, this is good. Great job, Savoy, you nailed it!” and not “hmm…maybe my stat is wrong.”, is that what I’m understanding?

and then you wrote 3000 messages trying to convince us that you’re right, and we’re wrong? Try some self-reflection, dude. In no universe should you be arguing that a career replacement-level player is worth more than a guy who won MVP and Finals MVP.

You are severely underrating Stockton. Stockton is well capable of being the best player on a championship team. His WS/48 in MOST of his seasons was better than almost any PG who ever won the Finals MVP.

Here are the PG's who won Finals MVP this century and their WS/48 during that season.

2022 - Curry - .173 - Stockton had 17 consecutive seasons with a WS/48 higher than .173

2020 - LeBron - .204 - Stockton had 13 seasons with WS/48 higher than .204

2007 Tony Parker - .185 - Stockton has 14 seasons with WS/48 higher than this, including his final season at age 40.

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 4:26:00 PM (view original):
You are severely underrating Stockton. Stockton is well capable of being the best player on a championship team. His WS/48 in MOST of his seasons was better than almost any PG who ever won the Finals MVP.

Here are the PG's who won Finals MVP this century and their WS/48 during that season.

2022 - Curry - .173 - Stockton had 17 consecutive seasons with a WS/48 higher than .173

2020 - LeBron - .204 - Stockton had 13 seasons with WS/48 higher than .204

2007 Tony Parker - .185 - Stockton has 14 seasons with WS/48 higher than this, including his final season at age 40.

Then maybe WS/48 is a flawed stat as well. You have Karl Malone as a top-10 player, right? So Stockton is “capable of being the best player on a championship team.” yet never won a championship even though he played with a “top-10” player of all time for ~15 years…so maybe your numbers are wrong, just a thought.

Let’s say that Savoy Jr. has two job offers on the table.

One is a job that pays $1,000,000/year for 1 year. After this year is over, he can do whatever he likes.

Another offer is a job that pays $80,000 with great security.

The average job available to Savoy Jr on the market in a pinch pays $75,000.

Savoy:

“Son, my advanced calculation says that you should take the $80,000 for 40 years. 80,000 x 40 is THREE POINT TWO MILLION DOLLARS, which is 3.2x more than the one million dollars. Also, my numbers say you can just work 20+ jobs at once since I didn’t factor in time as a resource.”

Savoy Jr.:

“But Dad, I can invest most of the $1,000,000 and work the $75k job for the other 39 years if I need to. That equals 3.9million plus whatever I get in dividends and th-

Savoy:

“HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT 80,000 x 40 IS WAY MORE THAN 1,000,000 x 1?!?

MY STATISTIC SAYS ITS BETTER!”

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 4:26:00 PM (view original):
You are severely underrating Stockton. Stockton is well capable of being the best player on a championship team. His WS/48 in MOST of his seasons was better than almost any PG who ever won the Finals MVP.

Here are the PG's who won Finals MVP this century and their WS/48 during that season.

2022 - Curry - .173 - Stockton had 17 consecutive seasons with a WS/48 higher than .173

2020 - LeBron - .204 - Stockton had 13 seasons with WS/48 higher than .204

2007 Tony Parker - .185 - Stockton has 14 seasons with WS/48 higher than this, including his final season at age 40.

fact: Stockton was never the best player on his own team which never won any titles - so again, maybe your methodology needs some gap reviewing

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 4:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 4:26:00 PM (view original):
You are severely underrating Stockton. Stockton is well capable of being the best player on a championship team. His WS/48 in MOST of his seasons was better than almost any PG who ever won the Finals MVP.

Here are the PG's who won Finals MVP this century and their WS/48 during that season.

2022 - Curry - .173 - Stockton had 17 consecutive seasons with a WS/48 higher than .173

2020 - LeBron - .204 - Stockton had 13 seasons with WS/48 higher than .204

2007 Tony Parker - .185 - Stockton has 14 seasons with WS/48 higher than this, including his final season at age 40.

Then maybe WS/48 is a flawed stat as well. You have Karl Malone as a top-10 player, right? So Stockton is “capable of being the best player on a championship team.” yet never won a championship even though he played with a “top-10” player of all time for ~15 years…so maybe your numbers are wrong, just a thought.

You guys put WAY to much emphasis on winning the championship. If Dick Bavetta doesn't **** up or if they had replay already in 1998 the Jazz would likely have won that championship instead of losing game 6 by one point. Also, if the officials had properly called the offensive foul on Jordan for shoving his defender out of the way before that game winning shot the Jazz probably win that championship. You can't put that much weight on winning or not winning a championship when that sometimes gets decided on a bad call or a non call in a one point game.

Malone and Stockton never had the third great player the way Jordan and Pippen had Grant or Kukoc or Rodman, or the way that Magic had Kareem and Worthy and others. Or the way that Bird had 3 other hall of famers in the starting lineup with him. The best player that Utah ever had to go with Malone and Stockton was Hornacek, and when they got him they breezed through the Western Conference in 2 straight seasons but lost really close Finals to the Bulls both times, including the game 6 in 1998 that I described above.

I refuse to base ANY of my player rankings on anything about winning or not winning a championship. Those are team events in a short series with lots of other players involved.

And if anyone wants to scrutinize the win shares formulas and point out to me why and where they are flawed, I'm listening. Until then I choose numbers over ANYBODY'S eye test or over anybody's simplistic championship/no championship conclusions.

Posted by copernicus on 4/16/2025 4:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 4:26:00 PM (view original):
You are severely underrating Stockton. Stockton is well capable of being the best player on a championship team. His WS/48 in MOST of his seasons was better than almost any PG who ever won the Finals MVP.

Here are the PG's who won Finals MVP this century and their WS/48 during that season.

2022 - Curry - .173 - Stockton had 17 consecutive seasons with a WS/48 higher than .173

2020 - LeBron - .204 - Stockton had 13 seasons with WS/48 higher than .204

2007 Tony Parker - .185 - Stockton has 14 seasons with WS/48 higher than this, including his final season at age 40.

fact: Stockton was never the best player on his own team which never won any titles - so again, maybe your methodology needs some gap reviewing

I like how you just pull statements out of your *** without even checking your facts.

Fact - Stockton was the best player on his own team in these 7 seasons.

86-87 - Led team in WS/48
87-88 - Led team in WS/48 by a mile and in win shares by 4 win shares over the second best player
88-89 - Led team in WS/48 and in win shares
93-94 - Led team in WS/48.
94-95 - Led team in win shares and WS/48
01-02 - Led team in win shares and WS/48
02-03 - Led team in WS/48

I don't care how great your top 2 players are. When your third through sixth best players are Blue Edwards, Tyrone Corbin, Thurl Bailey and Mark Eaton, you're not gonna win a championship.

nope - see your dumb methodology now has Stockton>Malone but has Malone as the greatest PF and Stockton the 3rd best PG and also Duncan was a PF and true hoopers know game is positionless anyway

too many holes my friend, too many holes - take it back to the drawing board