GOP psychos obsessed with Planned Parenthood Topic

We must stop using all these big words around swamp......he gets confused easy.
4/14/2011 1:21 PM

Well, he makes a point.

Nonetheless, if one believes life begins at conception, that's why one believes it's morally right to treat it as a human.   Unless we somehow believe a human fetus can evolve into a palm tree within the womb.

4/14/2011 1:27 PM
Posted by swamphawk22 on 4/14/2011 1:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by antonsirius on 4/14/2011 8:44:00 AM (view original):
Posted by silentpadna on 4/13/2011 2:27:00 PM (view original):

I'm not going to quote the entire exchange because it gets hard to read, but anton, it was you who brought up the "moral" argument.  I was simply addressing the points you made.  You said you know the mother is human and were not sure about the fetus.  I asked you to define the difference, which you didn't.  You then appealed to a different stage of development - arbitrarily picked, and a vague reference to Kant (who I am familiar with) along with claiming that there is no utilitarian argument based on your arbitrary claim.  The implication in your argument is that this arbitrary claim or assertion is fact, but you did not support it.

I'm not trying to convince you to switch a view to pro-life (of course I'd love to do that) - but I am trying to point out the merits of the position.  I can 100% see the merits of the pro-choice position, given a single premise.  If the fetus is not a human being, no justification for abortion would be necessary and we would have no right to restrict it.  It's the premise that I and other pro-life people have a problem with.  Without it being true, the entire justification falls apart.  You've chosen to take the converation into a different direction, avoid the question and assert that I don't understand the philosophy of morals.

I'll go down that road with you another time.  You are obviously free to avoid answering the questions I've posed to illustrate the pro-life position, but I've made it pretty clear.  Whether you agree with them or not is not my aim.  My aim is to let some of the folks here understand that the position we take is a reasonable one.  It's not about forcing the poor to become poorer or desiring women to suffer or any other of that nonsense.  It's about coming to a conclusion based on what we actually know about life and trying to protect individuals who cannot protect themselves.  I do not have an opinion about when life begins.  It's clear that upon conception, an organism is formed.  It is living and has the DNA structure of a human.  From that point on, all it does is grow.   It cannot change into any other type of being despite the level of development, where is lives, or what it is capable of.  None of those are opinions.  None or those are arbitrary.  I am pro-life because it's not possible to reconcile the type of being a fetus is with the right to kill it.  Come to a different conclusion?  Fine.  Call the pro-life position illogical and I think it's a stretch.  There are many many non-hysterical intelligent people (a whole lot smarter than me) who hold the same view.

I'm attempting to answer the question of whether an abortion is moral.

And no, nothing you've said on that subject particularly indicates that you understand the philosophy of morality. Sorry.

You believe humanity begins at conception. I'm not convinced. Give me a moral reason to treat a zygote, or even a 20-week-old fetus, as a human being. So far you have yet to even try.
In order for someone to oppose Planned Parenthood they have to understand the "Philosophy of Morality"?

**** off, liar. We're not talking about Planned Parenthood.
4/14/2011 1:43 PM
>>"I'm attempting to answer the question of whether an abortion is moral.  (This is a question you brought up)

And no, nothing you've said on that subject particularly indicates that you understand the philosophy of morality. Sorry.  (I never attempted to convince you of that, it's your subject.  You're welcome to expound on the philosophy of morality, but I have no idea why you think I need to show you my understanding of that subject.  Maybe I'm dumb (I don't claim to be a genius), but perhaps you could explain to not ony me, but to other readers, what you're getting at).

You believe humanity begins at conception. I'm not convinced. Give me a moral reason to treat a zygote, or even a 20-week-old fetus, as a human being. So far you have yet to even try."<<

You're telling me that you're attempting to answer whether abortion is moral, but in the same post asking me to give you a moral reason?  All while accusing me of not understanding what moral philosophy is... 

If your going to give vague references to the "philosophy of morality", but not define what you're talking about to those who read this thread, it's kind of pointless to try to play that game. 

If you arbitrarily choose when human life begins, it's really you who should be able to give a moral reason as to why human life begins at any other point than those factual events I've outlined.  If you're going to base your own moral decision on something, perhaps you should show a good reason and be willing to share it. 

If you're looking for an "ought to" here, my position is clear:  We "ought" to not kill human babies without justification because of the following reasons:

1.  A fetus is a living thing.
2.  The kind of DNA it has identifies what kind of living thing it is.
3.  The specific DNA signature it has identifies its own uniqueness from other living things.  (If you take a sample of the baby's DNA, it won't be the mother's).
4.  No other event after conception changes the type of being it is.

We "ought" to consider the fetus a human being for all of those reasons (and more).  Any other point along the process of development that is chosen is completely arbitrary.  We "ought" to give the benefit of the doubt and not kill based on arbitrary definitions of what constitutes a human being, but based on the facts we actually do know.  The moral reason for treating a zygote or fetus as a human being is by virtue of them being human beings and nothing else.  It's the same reason you have human rights.  You have human rights by virtue of being a human being.  The zygote/fetus derive their rights in exactly the same way.  Human beings deserve human rights by virtue of what kind of being they are - not by where they live, what their capabilities are, at what stage of developement they are - none of those things.  What is it that gives you human rights?

If you would like to share your philosophical expertise, please do.  I mean that sincerely.  I'm open to understanding whatever point you're trying to make, but you don't seem to want to share it.  If you're not willing to share it and you would rather play intellectual games about the philosophy of morals, knock yourself out. 

You can categorize and ignore the points I brought up all you want.  I'm not going to demand that you "do your homework" about something I know something about - I'm just sharing observations.  The original thread talked about "GOP psychos".  I'm attempting, among other things to illustrate why something like government funding of planned parenthood matters to pro-life people and that the logical arguments against the practice of killing innocent humans make the protection of those humans a very important issue.  I understand the pro-choice position.  It is logical, only if we don't consider the fetus a human being.

There is merit to both sides of the abortion argument.  Neither side argues from the same premise and it's the premise that is most important...IMO anyway.

(Edited for grammar)
4/14/2011 1:47 PM (edited)
There's nothing vague about it, padna. Things aren't moral or immoral just because Daddy says so - which is exactly how you're approaching it. None of the reasons you list above, for instance, have anything to do with whether we "ought" to take a life or not. They are completely irrelevant to that discussion.

If you haven't thought about why some actions are moral and some aren't, even in the easy cases, then you can get very lost when trying to wrestle with the hard cases.

So let's try an easy one: why is it immoral to kill another human being?
4/14/2011 1:52 PM
Nice diversion.   Away from people objecting to government funding of abortions to the morality of taking a life.  
4/14/2011 2:54 PM
Posted by antonsirius on 4/14/2011 1:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by swamphawk22 on 4/14/2011 1:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by antonsirius on 4/14/2011 8:44:00 AM (view original):
Posted by silentpadna on 4/13/2011 2:27:00 PM (view original):

I'm not going to quote the entire exchange because it gets hard to read, but anton, it was you who brought up the "moral" argument.  I was simply addressing the points you made.  You said you know the mother is human and were not sure about the fetus.  I asked you to define the difference, which you didn't.  You then appealed to a different stage of development - arbitrarily picked, and a vague reference to Kant (who I am familiar with) along with claiming that there is no utilitarian argument based on your arbitrary claim.  The implication in your argument is that this arbitrary claim or assertion is fact, but you did not support it.

I'm not trying to convince you to switch a view to pro-life (of course I'd love to do that) - but I am trying to point out the merits of the position.  I can 100% see the merits of the pro-choice position, given a single premise.  If the fetus is not a human being, no justification for abortion would be necessary and we would have no right to restrict it.  It's the premise that I and other pro-life people have a problem with.  Without it being true, the entire justification falls apart.  You've chosen to take the converation into a different direction, avoid the question and assert that I don't understand the philosophy of morals.

I'll go down that road with you another time.  You are obviously free to avoid answering the questions I've posed to illustrate the pro-life position, but I've made it pretty clear.  Whether you agree with them or not is not my aim.  My aim is to let some of the folks here understand that the position we take is a reasonable one.  It's not about forcing the poor to become poorer or desiring women to suffer or any other of that nonsense.  It's about coming to a conclusion based on what we actually know about life and trying to protect individuals who cannot protect themselves.  I do not have an opinion about when life begins.  It's clear that upon conception, an organism is formed.  It is living and has the DNA structure of a human.  From that point on, all it does is grow.   It cannot change into any other type of being despite the level of development, where is lives, or what it is capable of.  None of those are opinions.  None or those are arbitrary.  I am pro-life because it's not possible to reconcile the type of being a fetus is with the right to kill it.  Come to a different conclusion?  Fine.  Call the pro-life position illogical and I think it's a stretch.  There are many many non-hysterical intelligent people (a whole lot smarter than me) who hold the same view.

I'm attempting to answer the question of whether an abortion is moral.

And no, nothing you've said on that subject particularly indicates that you understand the philosophy of morality. Sorry.

You believe humanity begins at conception. I'm not convinced. Give me a moral reason to treat a zygote, or even a 20-week-old fetus, as a human being. So far you have yet to even try.
In order for someone to oppose Planned Parenthood they have to understand the "Philosophy of Morality"?

**** off, liar. We're not talking about Planned Parenthood.
Actually we are.

You want to make this about a vague hypthetical discussion based on the origins of morality. The only way you can debate an issue with people in the real world is to coat it in as much theory as possible.

So lets get back to reality.

1 Planned Parenthood performs abortions.
2 Planned Parenthood receives federal funding
3 Christians believe abortion is the taking of an innocent life
4 Christains may oppose the funding on that basis alone.

It is very simple. Your values are based on a lifetime of interaction with your society. You may not always be able to explain why you believe something is right or wrong, but you usually have an idea of what you believe about it.

I am such a liar!
4/14/2011 3:44 PM
**** off, liar, there are multiple conversations going on in this thread. We = padna and I.
4/14/2011 3:46 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/14/2011 2:54:00 PM (view original):
Nice diversion.   Away from people objecting to government funding of abortions to the morality of taking a life.  
It wasn't my diversion. It's also the only thread in here that I think worth talking about.

No one's stopping you from continuing to discuss Planned Parenthood.
4/14/2011 3:47 PM
Posted by antonsirius on 4/14/2011 1:52:00 PM (view original):
There's nothing vague about it, padna. Things aren't moral or immoral just because Daddy says so - which is exactly how you're approaching it. None of the reasons you list above, for instance, have anything to do with whether we "ought" to take a life or not. They are completely irrelevant to that discussion.

If you haven't thought about why some actions are moral and some aren't, even in the easy cases, then you can get very lost when trying to wrestle with the hard cases.

So let's try an easy one: why is it immoral to kill another human being?
That's actually not at all how I'm approaching it.  I don't need a "Daddy says so" to know that it is morally wrong to torture a 2-year old for the fun of it.  That is a self-evident truth that needs no proof.  It's there for observation.  You can demand proof if you want to for whatever intellectual exercise you want to engage in, but it's a rabbit trail and a waste of time.  In the same way I don't need to prove the universe exists, or that gravity exists.  The self-evident "we ought not take the life of another without justification" is absolutely relevant, since people make moral decisions all the time without the undergirding philosophy.  It's that self-evident moral that we are appealing to. 

No it's not a "Daddy says so" approach.  It's an observational approach about the universe and the way things are.  If you can justify any situation in any culture where it is okay to torture a 2-year old for pleasure, I'd love to see that.  The same holds for why it is immoral to kill another human being without justification.  The fact is that people live by these self-evident truths as it is.  It's the very basis of natural law.

Can I get lost in the maze of deep philosophy?  Yeah, probably.  It's not my area of study.  But there comes a point where that gets useless what's in front of you exists.

Just asserting that my points are irrelevant doesn't make them so.  The rabbit trail of morals and their sources is an interesting discussion in and of itself, but it is a diversion from the discussion.
4/14/2011 3:58 PM
Posted by antonsirius on 4/14/2011 3:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/14/2011 2:54:00 PM (view original):
Nice diversion.   Away from people objecting to government funding of abortions to the morality of taking a life.  
It wasn't my diversion. It's also the only thread in here that I think worth talking about.

No one's stopping you from continuing to discuss Planned Parenthood.

Yeah, it actually is your diversion.    You're started talking the philosophy of morals, didn't you?

4/14/2011 4:12 PM
Posted by silentpadna on 4/14/2011 3:58:00 PM (view original):
Posted by antonsirius on 4/14/2011 1:52:00 PM (view original):
There's nothing vague about it, padna. Things aren't moral or immoral just because Daddy says so - which is exactly how you're approaching it. None of the reasons you list above, for instance, have anything to do with whether we "ought" to take a life or not. They are completely irrelevant to that discussion.

If you haven't thought about why some actions are moral and some aren't, even in the easy cases, then you can get very lost when trying to wrestle with the hard cases.

So let's try an easy one: why is it immoral to kill another human being?
That's actually not at all how I'm approaching it.  I don't need a "Daddy says so" to know that it is morally wrong to torture a 2-year old for the fun of it.  That is a self-evident truth that needs no proof.  It's there for observation.  You can demand proof if you want to for whatever intellectual exercise you want to engage in, but it's a rabbit trail and a waste of time.  In the same way I don't need to prove the universe exists, or that gravity exists.  The self-evident "we ought not take the life of another without justification" is absolutely relevant, since people make moral decisions all the time without the undergirding philosophy.  It's that self-evident moral that we are appealing to. 

No it's not a "Daddy says so" approach.  It's an observational approach about the universe and the way things are.  If you can justify any situation in any culture where it is okay to torture a 2-year old for pleasure, I'd love to see that.  The same holds for why it is immoral to kill another human being without justification.  The fact is that people live by these self-evident truths as it is.  It's the very basis of natural law.

Can I get lost in the maze of deep philosophy?  Yeah, probably.  It's not my area of study.  But there comes a point where that gets useless what's in front of you exists.

Just asserting that my points are irrelevant doesn't make them so.  The rabbit trail of morals and their sources is an interesting discussion in and of itself, but it is a diversion from the discussion.
You keep asking how I know the mother is a human being and not the fetus. If you're not willing to have that discussion, I can only assume you're just posturing and aren't actually interested in anything I have to say. You're just looking for excuses to proselytize.
4/14/2011 4:43 PM
The bottom line, after the Professor lets us out of philosophy class is that Christians are told that they cannot base their political beliefs on the Christian values.

That is crazy. Most people in the world use their religion as the basis for their moral code. How can we tell Americans that it is wrong to support laws that fall in line with mainstream Christian beliefs?
4/14/2011 6:10 PM
There is nothing wrong with supporting or advocating for laws which are in line with your Christian beliefs, but it is wrong to expect them to be the basis for our laws. We are not, and never have been, a Christian nation. Many of our laws do fall in line with Christian morality, because moral values tend to be similar across different religions and even from believers to non-believers. But part of being an American is recognizing that we have a diversity of beliefs and that when it comes to our laws, one does not automatically hold sway over another.

4/14/2011 6:17 PM
There seems to be an odd contradiction in your post.

You can support laws based on Christianity, but it is wrong for the beliefs to be the basis of the laws? 

So if a law is passed that banns all abortions, and the Supreme Court upheld it, rejecting Roe, would this be ok?
4/14/2011 6:24 PM
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GOP psychos obsessed with Planned Parenthood Topic

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