Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by copernicus on 4/16/2025 4:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 4:26:00 PM (view original):
You are severely underrating Stockton. Stockton is well capable of being the best player on a championship team. His WS/48 in MOST of his seasons was better than almost any PG who ever won the Finals MVP.

Here are the PG's who won Finals MVP this century and their WS/48 during that season.

2022 - Curry - .173 - Stockton had 17 consecutive seasons with a WS/48 higher than .173

2020 - LeBron - .204 - Stockton had 13 seasons with WS/48 higher than .204

2007 Tony Parker - .185 - Stockton has 14 seasons with WS/48 higher than this, including his final season at age 40.

fact: Stockton was never the best player on his own team which never won any titles - so again, maybe your methodology needs some gap reviewing

I like how you just pull statements out of your *** without even checking your facts.

Fact - Stockton was the best player on his own team in these 7 seasons.

86-87 - Led team in WS/48
87-88 - Led team in WS/48 by a mile and in win shares by 4 win shares over the second best player
88-89 - Led team in WS/48 and in win shares
93-94 - Led team in WS/48.
94-95 - Led team in win shares and WS/48
01-02 - Led team in win shares and WS/48
02-03 - Led team in WS/48

I don't care how great your top 2 players are. When your third through sixth best players are Blue Edwards, Tyrone Corbin, Thurl Bailey and Mark Eaton, you're not gonna win a championship.

two-time DPOY Mark Eaton, you mean? chopped liver, obviously

and I don't think Magic ever played with the best at whatever position unless you think Cap in '85 was the same guy as Lew in '72 - another problem with your wacky methodology, I guess

also keep Dr Dunkenstein's name out of your mouth!

Why do they play? To win championships. If I’m in the fan base of a team I would take Walton and his two rings over Thaddeus Young any day. If I am the player I would rather spend half my career injured and win two championships than whatever Thaddeus Young did.

Posted by copernicus on 4/16/2025 5:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by copernicus on 4/16/2025 4:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 4:26:00 PM (view original):
You are severely underrating Stockton. Stockton is well capable of being the best player on a championship team. His WS/48 in MOST of his seasons was better than almost any PG who ever won the Finals MVP.

Here are the PG's who won Finals MVP this century and their WS/48 during that season.

2022 - Curry - .173 - Stockton had 17 consecutive seasons with a WS/48 higher than .173

2020 - LeBron - .204 - Stockton had 13 seasons with WS/48 higher than .204

2007 Tony Parker - .185 - Stockton has 14 seasons with WS/48 higher than this, including his final season at age 40.

fact: Stockton was never the best player on his own team which never won any titles - so again, maybe your methodology needs some gap reviewing

I like how you just pull statements out of your *** without even checking your facts.

Fact - Stockton was the best player on his own team in these 7 seasons.

86-87 - Led team in WS/48
87-88 - Led team in WS/48 by a mile and in win shares by 4 win shares over the second best player
88-89 - Led team in WS/48 and in win shares
93-94 - Led team in WS/48.
94-95 - Led team in win shares and WS/48
01-02 - Led team in win shares and WS/48
02-03 - Led team in WS/48

I don't care how great your top 2 players are. When your third through sixth best players are Blue Edwards, Tyrone Corbin, Thurl Bailey and Mark Eaton, you're not gonna win a championship.

two-time DPOY Mark Eaton, you mean? chopped liver, obviously

and I don't think Magic ever played with the best at whatever position unless you think Cap in '85 was the same guy as Lew in '72 - another problem with your wacky methodology, I guess

also keep Dr Dunkenstein's name out of your mouth!

Magic played with these 8 players who were all top 50 all time at their positions.

SHOOTING GUARD
36. Byron Scott - 76.93

SMALL FORWARD
27. Worthy - 90.68
44. Wilkes - 78.22

POWER FORWARD
26. AC Green - 93.38
38. Spencer Haywood - 85.28

CENTER
1. Kareem - 228.52
28. McAdoo - 102.88
35. Divac - 92.00

so you're saying Doo playing less than 20 mpg and scoring 10 ppg is the same thing as MVP Doo? Is that the hill you want to stand on? you are worse than bosoxbill

Mailman #1, Stockton (who is even better than him according to your whole silly thing) #3, both in their actual primes and they've got nothing to show for it? better check your numbers man...

Posted by Midge on 4/16/2025 5:31:00 PM (view original):
Why do they play? To win championships. If I’m in the fan base of a team I would take Walton and his two rings over Thaddeus Young any day. If I am the player I would rather spend half my career injured and win two championships than whatever Thaddeus Young did.

They play way more to make money than to win championships. Unless you think that Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and Elgin Baylor would all trade their Hall of Fame careers with Robert Horry and his 7 championships.

Would Chris Paul trade his Hall of Fame career with Derek Fisher or Tony Parker?

Would John Stockton trade his career as the all time assists and steals leader so he could have Ron Harper's 3 championships?

These players have you guys conned.

hah! you even grasped for Spencer Haywood! classic savoy!

Posted by copernicus on 4/16/2025 5:42:00 PM (view original):
so you're saying Doo playing less than 20 mpg and scoring 10 ppg is the same thing as MVP Doo? Is that the hill you want to stand on? you are worse than bosoxbill

Mailman #1, Stockton (who is even better than him according to your whole silly thing) #3, both in their actual primes and they've got nothing to show for it? better check your numbers man...

They have Hall of Fame careers and lifetime wealth to show for it, which neither would give up for any amount of championships. You're a sap if you think Malone or Barkley would give up their careers if they could have instead had Robert Horry's 7 championship career.

You guys have been conned. Championships are nice, but none of these guys would give up their huge contracts to just be on a championship team.

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Midge on 4/16/2025 5:31:00 PM (view original):
Why do they play? To win championships. If I’m in the fan base of a team I would take Walton and his two rings over Thaddeus Young any day. If I am the player I would rather spend half my career injured and win two championships than whatever Thaddeus Young did.

They play way more to make money than to win championships. Unless you think that Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and Elgin Baylor would all trade their Hall of Fame careers with Robert Horry and his 7 championships.

Would Chris Paul trade his Hall of Fame career with Derek Fisher or Tony Parker?

Would John Stockton trade his career as the all time assists and steals leader so he could have Ron Harper's 3 championships?

These players have you guys conned.

No one here is claiming Horry>Barkley. We’re stating that getting a guy who gives you championship equity for 3-5 years is way better than having a guy who is “meh” for 18 years, and that looking at career value with no modifications is not a good way of looking at it.

Posted by copernicus on 4/16/2025 5:42:00 PM (view original):
so you're saying Doo playing less than 20 mpg and scoring 10 ppg is the same thing as MVP Doo? Is that the hill you want to stand on? you are worse than bosoxbill

Mailman #1, Stockton (who is even better than him according to your whole silly thing) #3, both in their actual primes and they've got nothing to show for it? better check your numbers man...

Doo playing 20minutes a game is far better than Having Thurl Bailey and Blue Edwards playing 38 minutes a game each.

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by copernicus on 4/16/2025 5:42:00 PM (view original):
so you're saying Doo playing less than 20 mpg and scoring 10 ppg is the same thing as MVP Doo? Is that the hill you want to stand on? you are worse than bosoxbill

Mailman #1, Stockton (who is even better than him according to your whole silly thing) #3, both in their actual primes and they've got nothing to show for it? better check your numbers man...

Doo playing 20minutes a game is far better than Having Thurl Bailey and Blue Edwards playing 38 minutes a game each.

Wait, you’re actually on to something for once!

So would you also agree that having Curry for 28 minutes could maybe, just maybe, be better than Issel for 40?

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 5:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Midge on 4/16/2025 5:31:00 PM (view original):
Why do they play? To win championships. If I’m in the fan base of a team I would take Walton and his two rings over Thaddeus Young any day. If I am the player I would rather spend half my career injured and win two championships than whatever Thaddeus Young did.

They play way more to make money than to win championships. Unless you think that Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and Elgin Baylor would all trade their Hall of Fame careers with Robert Horry and his 7 championships.

Would Chris Paul trade his Hall of Fame career with Derek Fisher or Tony Parker?

Would John Stockton trade his career as the all time assists and steals leader so he could have Ron Harper's 3 championships?

These players have you guys conned.

No one here is claiming Horry>Barkley. We’re stating that getting a guy who gives you championship equity for 3-5 years is way better than having a guy who is “meh” for 18 years, and that looking at career value with no modifications is not a good way of looking at it.

I rank guys on half career value and half peak value. Peak being best 7 seasons. You guys are free to come up with your own system. Something other than I'm gonna give these guys the eye test and then I am gonna pull the rankings out of my *** based on nothing but championships and what I (remember that I) saw. As if anybody saw enough of any players to simply rank them that way. How are you gonna rank players that you never saw?

Without numbers you guys would have no clue who the best players were.

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by copernicus on 4/16/2025 5:42:00 PM (view original):
so you're saying Doo playing less than 20 mpg and scoring 10 ppg is the same thing as MVP Doo? Is that the hill you want to stand on? you are worse than bosoxbill

Mailman #1, Stockton (who is even better than him according to your whole silly thing) #3, both in their actual primes and they've got nothing to show for it? better check your numbers man...

They have Hall of Fame careers and lifetime wealth to show for it, which neither would give up for any amount of championships. You're a sap if you think Malone or Barkley would give up their careers if they could have instead had Robert Horry's 7 championship career.

You guys have been conned. Championships are nice, but none of these guys would give up their huge contracts to just be on a championship team.

But dummy, that's not what you said

you said Magic got to play w Doo as if playing next to his 32 year old carcass was the same thing as playing with him when he was putting up 30ppg - this is one of the many things wrong with your system

Also, you are applying your own thing inconsistently; you are looking at value over time, but then trying to apply it in an argument to make points about where a player was in a given season (like Magic played with all these guys!). Cap played 22 mpg and shot 47% from the floor in his last season - that is not the same as Magic playing with him when he was accruing all the mojo you are attributing to him from the 1970s

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 5:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Midge on 4/16/2025 5:31:00 PM (view original):
Why do they play? To win championships. If I’m in the fan base of a team I would take Walton and his two rings over Thaddeus Young any day. If I am the player I would rather spend half my career injured and win two championships than whatever Thaddeus Young did.

They play way more to make money than to win championships. Unless you think that Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and Elgin Baylor would all trade their Hall of Fame careers with Robert Horry and his 7 championships.

Would Chris Paul trade his Hall of Fame career with Derek Fisher or Tony Parker?

Would John Stockton trade his career as the all time assists and steals leader so he could have Ron Harper's 3 championships?

These players have you guys conned.

No one here is claiming Horry>Barkley. We’re stating that getting a guy who gives you championship equity for 3-5 years is way better than having a guy who is “meh” for 18 years, and that looking at career value with no modifications is not a good way of looking at it.

I rank guys on half career value and half peak value. Peak being best 7 seasons. You guys are free to come up with your own system. Something other than I'm gonna give these guys the eye test and then I am gonna pull the rankings out of my *** based on nothing but championships and what I (remember that I) saw. As if anybody saw enough of any players to simply rank them that way. How are you gonna rank players that you never saw?

Without numbers you guys would have no clue who the best players were.

Dude.

you are on a website full of guys who play a simulated basketball game with just the numbers. We all have our own spreadsheets and stats and formulas. And we’re all better than you at this game, I don’t mean that in a mean way, it’s just the truth. And none of us have equations that show that Thad Young > Bill Walton.

When I join a new hobby and am one of the worst people in the group/have the most to learn, I listen to the people who are better than me and try to learn. I don’t spend all day telling all of them who are better than me that they’re wrong about everything.

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 5:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by copernicus on 4/16/2025 5:42:00 PM (view original):
so you're saying Doo playing less than 20 mpg and scoring 10 ppg is the same thing as MVP Doo? Is that the hill you want to stand on? you are worse than bosoxbill

Mailman #1, Stockton (who is even better than him according to your whole silly thing) #3, both in their actual primes and they've got nothing to show for it? better check your numbers man...

Doo playing 20minutes a game is far better than Having Thurl Bailey and Blue Edwards playing 38 minutes a game each.

Wait, you’re actually on to something for once!

So would you also agree that having Curry for 28 minutes could maybe, just maybe, be better than Issel for 40?

Anybody might have a better 28 minutes than anybody else's 40 minutes in one particular game. And if the game is taking place in the 50s or 60s or in the NBA before 1979, Issel would be far more valuable than Curry with no 3 point shot. But if your choice is Curry for 28 minutes for 82 games, or Issel for 40 minutes for 82 games, I'm taking Issel even with 3 point shots. He'd be playing 43% more minutes for the season. Check the salaries on here for Curry playing about 2300 minutes and Issel playing about 3300 minutes and see who is higher.

I'll do it for you.

18-19 Curry - 2331 minutes - $6.366M
73-74 Issel - 3268 minutes - $7.472M

OMG

minutes is part of the very flawed WIS salary valuation system, so is usage even if efg is ****