So it's no longer communism?  Well that's a relief?

How is it bad economics?

Posted by swamphawk22 on 11/19/2010 10:17:00 PM (view original):
There is a difference between thinking that there is a conspiracy to let the UN control the country and just thinking it is a bad idea.

There is always a fear whenever the UN is involved. That is expected.

The bottom line is the idea for so called sustainable growth is just another left wing anti-growth idea. It is just bad economics.

I disagree that it is bad economics and believe in the very near future it will become the smartest economics. Planned communities with no yards and parks on every corner are the future and they will closer to the cities. This is a good thing.

Posted by antonsirius on 11/19/2010 8:42:00 PM (view original):
The difference is, the 9/11 Truthers don't have gubernatorial and Congressional candidates spouting their particular conspiracy theories. Nor do they have someone like Glenn Beck mainstreaming their brand of crazy on a daily basis.

There's a reason Buckley worked so hard to drive this **** out of the GOP, tp. it's not poison to the party, it's poison to the country.

I don't want to defend the tea party but they are in many ways average people( I am not saying they are grass roots) getting involved in politics. That seems like it would be a good thing but not in their case because their ideaology is flawed.

They want to starve the govt, cut taxes and spending completely and think we will miraculously heal ourselves.  That platform is crazy but effective. The attention being brought on their oppostion to agenda 21 or whatever it is, is because it shows them to be crazy and does not help them but it is an exageration of who they are. I would have to believe their rank and file does not care one way ofr the other.

A group like that by its nature is going to attract nut jobs. See NOW and the oft mentioned ACLU. Not all their members are crazy and some actually do some good, but there are some psychos in both those groups as well.

The grass roots thing is complicated...to me, there's no doubt that it's grass roots...to many stories of people mobilizing themselves.  There's just this distracting corporate involvement that has kind of distorted that quality.

Otherwise, agreed...well put.  Crazy and all kinds of appealing/effective.

Posted by tpob18 on 11/20/2010 1:20:00 AM (view original):

Posted by antonsirius on 11/19/2010 8:42:00 PM (view original):
The difference is, the 9/11 Truthers don't have gubernatorial and Congressional candidates spouting their particular conspiracy theories. Nor do they have someone like Glenn Beck mainstreaming their brand of crazy on a daily basis.

There's a reason Buckley worked so hard to drive this **** out of the GOP, tp. it's not poison to the party, it's poison to the country.

I don't want to defend the tea party but they are in many ways average people( I am not saying they are grass roots) getting involved in politics. That seems like it would be a good thing but not in their case because their ideaology is flawed.

They want to starve the govt, cut taxes and spending completely and think we will miraculously heal ourselves.  That platform is crazy but effective. The attention being brought on their oppostion to agenda 21 or whatever it is, is because it shows them to be crazy and does not help them but it is an exageration of who they are. I would have to believe their rank and file does not care one way ofr the other.

A group like that by its nature is going to attract nut jobs. See NOW and the oft mentioned ACLU. Not all their members are crazy and some actually do some good, but there are some psychos in both those groups as well.

Trying to compare Bircher-inspired conspiracy theorists to the ACLU is a terrible false equivalence. That's like comparing serial killers to the monks who set themselves on fire protesting the Vietnam War.

What momentum the Tea Party has is due to to the poor economy. If people get their jobs back, the movement will mostly evaporate. It's fueled by anger and pain - which is why it's so open to the Bircher bullshit.

Of course if the jobs don't come back... we've probably just scratched the surface of the ugly.

Tea partiers are feeling less pain than most.

Their momentum comes from people who are fed up with govt and really fed up with dems who were the party of their parents. They feel the dems have turned their back on the middle class to be the party of fags, foreigners and minorities. They feel liked they are taxed to pay for people that are to lazy and stupid to work. They do not feel like they have representation from either party. 

They also want the govt to seal our borders because they are too stupid to real cause of all their problems is the chinese not  the Mexicans. They will be the first ones lined up at walmart on Friday to buy more cheap crap from china.

I was not aware that William F Buckley said anything about the tea party before his death.  Is that the Buckley you mean? I saw his brother wrote a book saying he would not like them. I don't know Chis Buckley's thoughts on the tea party but doubt he approves (He did endorse Obama). Chris and William are great writers but they are(were) also snobs. Chris is my favorite author though.

The commie/socialist/Marixst crap, and a lot of the other paranoid anti-UN nonsense, originates from the John Birch Society, which Wm Buckley and others tried to drive out of mainstream conservatism back in Goldwater's day. It's not a new form of crazy, it's recycled.

But those are the people bringing the tea party down by bringing their fringe crazy beliefs to a group dedicated to eliminating taxes and spending. They believe in small govt so they fit with the tea party but do not represent all of  them or even a majority. I don't want to be the defender of the tea party but as a white middle class male I do not feel I have any representation. If I did not think and were guided by emotion I could see myself buying into some of the tea party BS. They lose me with the cut taxes and spending blindly rhetoric. I do empathize with the tea party I just think there solutions are wrong.

Buckley may be the father modern conservatism but I see him as just an extension of british conservatism that says true strength is making the tough choice to sacrifice others or the whole system will break down. Kind of like the Ted Knight character in Caddyshack saying and I paraphrase "I sentenced kids younger to you to the death penalty. I didn't want to do it but I felt I owed it to them".

Posted by antonsirius on 11/21/2010 8:07:00 AM (view original):
The commie/socialist/Marixst crap, and a lot of the other paranoid anti-UN nonsense, originates from the John Birch Society, which Wm Buckley and others tried to drive out of mainstream conservatism back in Goldwater's day. It's not a new form of crazy, it's recycled.

Most of the Tea Party people had never heard of the John Birch Society. They dont care about floridated water or any of that old time stuff.

Your attempt to mkae the Tea Party something it isnt is common for the left. They cannot understand the appeal so they strike out by making them look crazy. Any misstep by a Tea Party candidate was to news. For the most part they are good people.

Posted by tpob18 on 11/21/2010 11:51:00 AM (view original):
But those are the people bringing the tea party down by bringing their fringe crazy beliefs to a group dedicated to eliminating taxes and spending. They believe in small govt so they fit with the tea party but do not represent all of  them or even a majority. I don't want to be the defender of the tea party but as a white middle class male I do not feel I have any representation. If I did not think and were guided by emotion I could see myself buying into some of the tea party BS. They lose me with the cut taxes and spending blindly rhetoric. I do empathize with the tea party I just think there solutions are wrong.

Buckley may be the father modern conservatism but I see him as just an extension of british conservatism that says true strength is making the tough choice to sacrifice others or the whole system will break down. Kind of like the Ted Knight character in Caddyshack saying and I paraphrase "I sentenced kids younger to you to the death penalty. I didn't want to do it but I felt I owed it to them".

Oh great. Now I have to go watch Caddyshack again. "When you buy a hat like this I bet you get a free bowl of soup, huh? Oh, it looks good on you, though."

That's the thing for me - I don't really know what percentage of the Tea Party really buys into the Bircher filth or not. Nor do I know how many might be uncomfortable with it, but are willing to let it go to 'further the cause', which is almost as bad. I certainly don't see too many Tea Party folk actively working to oust the racists and paranoids from their ranks, and the percentage of "Tea Party candidates" (however you want to define that term) who are willing to feed that beast either in plain talk or through coded dog whistles is, well, shocking, even if it's somewhat reassuring that many of the most vocal ones like Angle and O'Donnell lost their elections. (Of course, just a couple of weeks later Beck went on his anti-Soros bender...)

And yeah, I'm not saying I agree with Buckley and his ilk on everything, but he was absolutely right to marginalize and to try and bury the paranoid strain of conservatism the Birchers represented.

I hear you on the run the fools out part but they are still pretty young and disorganized to be able to that.  The first fool they need to run out is Beck.

Posted by antonsirius on 11/23/2010 8:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tpob18 on 11/21/2010 11:51:00 AM (view original):
But those are the people bringing the tea party down by bringing their fringe crazy beliefs to a group dedicated to eliminating taxes and spending. They believe in small govt so they fit with the tea party but do not represent all of  them or even a majority. I don't want to be the defender of the tea party but as a white middle class male I do not feel I have any representation. If I did not think and were guided by emotion I could see myself buying into some of the tea party BS. They lose me with the cut taxes and spending blindly rhetoric. I do empathize with the tea party I just think there solutions are wrong.

Buckley may be the father modern conservatism but I see him as just an extension of british conservatism that says true strength is making the tough choice to sacrifice others or the whole system will break down. Kind of like the Ted Knight character in Caddyshack saying and I paraphrase "I sentenced kids younger to you to the death penalty. I didn't want to do it but I felt I owed it to them".

Oh great. Now I have to go watch Caddyshack again. "When you buy a hat like this I bet you get a free bowl of soup, huh? Oh, it looks good on you, though."

That's the thing for me - I don't really know what percentage of the Tea Party really buys into the Bircher filth or not. Nor do I know how many might be uncomfortable with it, but are willing to let it go to 'further the cause', which is almost as bad. I certainly don't see too many Tea Party folk actively working to oust the racists and paranoids from their ranks, and the percentage of "Tea Party candidates" (however you want to define that term) who are willing to feed that beast either in plain talk or through coded dog whistles is, well, shocking, even if it's somewhat reassuring that many of the most vocal ones like Angle and O'Donnell lost their elections. (Of course, just a couple of weeks later Beck went on his anti-Soros bender...)

And yeah, I'm not saying I agree with Buckley and his ilk on everything, but he was absolutely right to marginalize and to try and bury the paranoid strain of conservatism the Birchers represented.

Can you spellout "Bircher Filth" a little more.

Sounds like another reason for the left to bash the Tea Party without actually pointing to anything specific.

Bump for any explaination of what Anton is talking about?

I think he is just making it up, but if anyone can explain it I would appreciate it!