Zone defense against 3's Topic

pumphead
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Hoping for some advice on defending against teams that makes a lot of 3's.  For the purposes of this question, lets assume each player's defense rating is roughly the same.

Better to run a 2-3 at +2 or so, or a 3-2 at -2 (give or take a + or -)?

In my experience, the 3-2 really doesn't slow down the other teams perimeter shooting much (unless one lockdown defender boosts the other two considerably).  On the other hand, the 2-3 only yields a couple more rebounds.  Fouls aren't really a problem either way.

I've never tried a 3-2 +4 or 5 - seems like asking for trouble.  Any tips?
7/9/2010 4:27 PM
mburgy
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I've been playing with a 3-2 (-2 to 0) against good perimeter shooting teams and been having some success with it. The 3-2 has worked better for me this season than the 2-3. I'm get outrebounded, but my opponents shot percentage is much lower.

I think you're asking for trouble if you play anything over a +3 or a -3 in either defense.
7/9/2010 5:05 PM
pumphead
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Posted by mburgy on 7/9/2010 5:05:00 PM (view original):
I've been playing with a 3-2 (-2 to 0) against good perimeter shooting teams and been having some success with it. The 3-2 has worked better for me this season than the 2-3. I'm get outrebounded, but my opponents shot percentage is much lower.

I think you're asking for trouble if you play anything over a +3 or a -3 in either defense.
I agree about the +/- 3, for any defense really (with the rare exception of -4 every now and again).

It just seems that the "3" part of the 3-2 doesn't do anything except add another rating to be averaged in.  I admit my sample size is small - I go 2-3 maybe 90% of the time.  I'll try some more experimenting.

FWIW, I'm pleased with the little bump the zone got with the new engine (again though, small sample).
7/9/2010 5:16 PM
haasdr
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i have had more success with the 3-2 (0 +/-) base defense in the new engine.  i used to use a 2-3 +2 as my base defense with the old one.
7/9/2010 5:33 PM
a_in_the_b
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I have had some good luck against threes with Three two defenses with selective double teaming - with a team that admittedly has defensive problems.

7/9/2010 5:45 PM
rednu
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IN D-III, I've used the 3-2 alignment in both the old and new engine (although I'll shift to a 2-3 vs. teams playing a second center at PF or against teams with a significant REB edge), usually ranging from a +1 to a -2 on the positioning. (Like others, I never swing more than +/-3 unless the halftime auto-adjust puts me there (I think I've kicked to a -4 once in four seasons...). I think the best season my opponents have had vs. the 3-2 alignment is 34 percent from 3-pt range. Two of the four seasons have been sub-30 percent.

It seems to me that the best combination if you go with a 3-2 is to have good speed/athleticism at the PG,SG and SF spots (high Def. helps also, but I don't think it impacts defense of the 3 to the degree the other two cats do) and it really helps if either your PF or C has an above average/exceptional rebounding number (and the other has at least an average rating).
7/9/2010 7:40 PM
4green2
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My best three two (Admittedly from the old engine, when I ran a three two) Was three guards and two very strong rebounders down low.

7/9/2010 7:57 PM
pumphead
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Great stuff guys, thanks.
7/9/2010 8:51 PM
kmasonbx
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Whenever I've played 3-2 I've always used it as a + defense or 0, I don't see the point of using 3-2 - unless you always use 3-2.

7/9/2010 9:16 PM
pumphead
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Posted by kmasonbx on 7/9/2010 9:16:00 PM (view original):

Whenever I've played 3-2 I've always used it as a + defense or 0, I don't see the point of using 3-2 - unless you always use 3-2.

What about when you face a team that you have to shut down outside, but they also edge you in rebounding? (This is probably more telling about how bad my teams are...)
7/9/2010 10:24 PM
dcy0827
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Posted by mburgy on 7/9/2010 5:05:00 PM (view original):
I've been playing with a 3-2 (-2 to 0) against good perimeter shooting teams and been having some success with it. The 3-2 has worked better for me this season than the 2-3. I'm get outrebounded, but my opponents shot percentage is much lower.

I think you're asking for trouble if you play anything over a +3 or a -3 in either defense.
Couldn't disagree more about the +3/-3 settings.  There are most definitely times when a 4 or 5 are appropriate. 
7/10/2010 3:24 AM
pumphead
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Posted by dcy0827 on 7/10/2010 3:24:00 AM (view original):
Posted by mburgy on 7/9/2010 5:05:00 PM (view original):
I've been playing with a 3-2 (-2 to 0) against good perimeter shooting teams and been having some success with it. The 3-2 has worked better for me this season than the 2-3. I'm get outrebounded, but my opponents shot percentage is much lower.

I think you're asking for trouble if you play anything over a +3 or a -3 in either defense.
Couldn't disagree more about the +3/-3 settings.  There are most definitely times when a 4 or 5 are appropriate. 
dcy, learn me something: I've kind of observed that -5 is frowned upon, sort of a gentleman's agreement.  I've used it a couple times, with success, but only against sims (I think).  It seems like the possible foul circus would defeat the purpose, but I didn't encounter that.

What's the verdict?

7/10/2010 4:10 AM
udm_mike
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Posted by pumphead on 7/10/2010 4:10:00 AM (view original):
Posted by dcy0827 on 7/10/2010 3:24:00 AM (view original):
Posted by mburgy on 7/9/2010 5:05:00 PM (view original):
I've been playing with a 3-2 (-2 to 0) against good perimeter shooting teams and been having some success with it. The 3-2 has worked better for me this season than the 2-3. I'm get outrebounded, but my opponents shot percentage is much lower.

I think you're asking for trouble if you play anything over a +3 or a -3 in either defense.
Couldn't disagree more about the +3/-3 settings.  There are most definitely times when a 4 or 5 are appropriate. 
dcy, learn me something: I've kind of observed that -5 is frowned upon, sort of a gentleman's agreement.  I've used it a couple times, with success, but only against sims (I think).  It seems like the possible foul circus would defeat the purpose, but I didn't encounter that.

What's the verdict?

It's only frowned upon when there's no logical reason to use it.  If a team only shoots 5% of his total shots from 3 and has bad ft shooters, there's no reason not to run -4 or -5.  It's when guys are just totally outmatched and run a -5 simply in the hopes of creating some unrealistic outcome will anyone complain.

I'm pretty sure I just gave you advice on how to beat my team. Crap.


7/10/2010 9:05 AM
daalter
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pump, no question that a 3-2 defends against the perimeter much better than a 2-3. (Of course, if you are only comparing a 2-3, +2 to a 3-2, -2, that will mitigate some of the advantage.) But all else being equal, it's a large difference.
7/10/2010 10:32 AM
mburgy
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Posted by dcy0827 on 7/10/2010 3:24:00 AM (view original):
Posted by mburgy on 7/9/2010 5:05:00 PM (view original):
I've been playing with a 3-2 (-2 to 0) against good perimeter shooting teams and been having some success with it. The 3-2 has worked better for me this season than the 2-3. I'm get outrebounded, but my opponents shot percentage is much lower.

I think you're asking for trouble if you play anything over a +3 or a -3 in either defense.
Couldn't disagree more about the +3/-3 settings.  There are most definitely times when a 4 or 5 are appropriate. 
dcy, I guess there could be times when a -4 or -5 is appropriate. If you have a team you are playing (especially in Div III) where you are playing a team that has very little to go for in PER and shoots almost invariably from the post, then yes I guess a -4 or -5 would work. I stand corrected. I still think you're asking for trouble though. If I see a team that goes -4 or -5 very often, I'm making my guards shoot 3's like crazy and going uptempo...no matter how bad of a shooter they are. If you are shooting 30 3's and making 25-30% of them (a loosely guarded guy should hit that %), you are still scoring more than shooting 30 2's and making 45% of them...which is presumably what a -4 or -5 would do to a good post player.

I would love to see the game add a few more zone defenses. 1-3-1 would be nice, and then adding some junk defenses like a Triangle and 2, a Diamond and 1, and a Box and 1 would really make the game planning much more fun.
7/10/2010 12:23 PM
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