Holy Crap- CS/recruiting question Topic

i started a thread about a week ago regarding SIM pricing for internationals, and nobody had a definitive answer so I sent in a CS ticket. Forgot about it, then checked the response a minute ago. See below
11/22/2010 12:27 PM
11/15/2010 5:12 PM wronoj
Recruiting question-- how much does SIM as coach pay to recruit international players?

I know for domestic players he pays the same as he would at ~200 miles distance, but cannot find any info on international recruits. Is the answer different for Mexican and Canadian recruits than it is for non-North American guys who are ineligible for Campus Visits?

I posted a topic on this in the HD forum and received mixed answers and a little bit of confusion... the consensus seems to be that SIM pays $700 for Scouting Trips and $1500 for Home Visits, same as we humans pay. Any clarification would be appreciated.

Josh
11/16/2010 5:48 PM Customer Support
SimAI teams recruit differently than human teams. They don't have a budget and don't submit individual recruiting actions. They also are not impacted by distance. How strongly they go after a particular player depends on how much they need him. The more they need him, the tougher it will be to knock them off the player.
11/22/2010 12:25 PM wronoj
What? This is counter to everything anyone has EVER said about SIM recruiting. How can we hope to compete with a SIM recruiting when we have no idea what their budget is?

Also, check out the FAQ/Info section, where is says specifically that SIMs recruit at the same cost as a normal team at ~200 miles.

Please please please explain further...
11/22/2010 12:27 PM
I'll post next response if/when it's received.
11/22/2010 12:27 PM
Haha aif you get another person the answer will be different.  its a joke maybe
11/22/2010 12:57 PM

Either the person who replied to your ticket is completely clueless and was talking out his a$$ or everyone in CS is completely clueless because I asked the same question a couple months ago and received a totally different answer. When I submitted my ticket about international recruits I was told the SIM recruited them at the same cost we would and they received no discount or mileage advantage.

11/22/2010 1:12 PM
scotty-- i'm going back and forth with someone now, and they just told me 200 miles... don't believe them, but...

I'll post it all when i'm satisfied it's over.      
11/22/2010 1:15 PM
Ya which is it and if so why the hell woudl someone give you wrong info that is f'd up.
11/22/2010 1:36 PM
I don't think that info is all that wrong based on older tickets that I had opened.  Don't read that much into it though.  I'll switch accounts and see if I can find some background.  I know I made a topic about it after I received the responses.
11/22/2010 1:48 PM
5/4/2009 5:49 PM mlatsko1
In reference to the sim coached Southern Mississippi team.

Now that recruiting is completed a few vet coaches are debating how the sim coached teams handle carryover. Do they get to keep the carryover money from prior seasons? And in the case of this sim, it appears to have not recruited while being human coached the year before, due to no scholarships.

Could you please clarify how much money a sim coach team is allowed to recruit with and how it handles it's recruiting in general?

Thanks - Mike
5/5/2009 1:11 AM Customer Support
Michael,

Sim AI teams do not recruit in the same way as humans. They do not use money, but instead get a certain amount of "effort" based on open scholarships and prestige that is distributed among a group of recruits.
5/5/2009 10:32 AM mlatsko1
Is it possible for this effort to exceed that of a human coach player with an equivalent amount of open scholarships?

How is a human coach supposed to judge the ability of the sim. Currently, we know the costs involved for other humans and we know, with in a very small margin, the amount of available funds for another human.

We're looking at a specific case were a human had to spend 75k to top a Sim coach. That seems a bit drastic.
5/5/2009 10:48 AM Customer Support
How much effort a Sim puts into a player depends on how much they need that player based on their current roster. We have to allow for those teams to sign a few good players or they become extremely undesirable jobs. If there is a specific player you're interested in I can take a look.
5/6/2009 7:46 AM mlatsko1
http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Recruiting.aspx?tid=11809

He was signed by Boston College. The BC coach says he spent 75k or so. The SIM team he was battling, was Southern Miss. So I'd be curious to know what kind of effort the sim had and what kind of effort the sim was able to give to it's other players as well. This would give us an idea of how much a sim actually has to work with.

Many vets have always been under the assumption that it's the same as us, or less and that they spend roughly 75% of their budget on their main target.

Maybe if those myths were debunked, this might really brighten some eyes in the HD community.

Thanks for your help.
5/6/2009 8:42 AM Customer Support
Well, with just seeing his location, I can probably determine what happened. The Sim AI teams do not take distance into account when recruiting. A coach in Boston recruiting a kid in Mexico would have very expensive recruiting options. So 75k is misleading to say as that's not even close to saying 75k for a local kid.
5/6/2009 8:50 AM mlatsko1
Yeah, we ran the math on that and assumed that the sim didn't have to pay the same prices for recruiting. But that is where it got fuzzy. Because assuming the same types of visits (we used campus as a baseline) the sim would have had to have put in 35k-37k of effort. But in theory, the sim would have only had 45k from 3 open scholarships and 10k of tournament money (if they get that.). This was on top of the sim going after 2 other recruits that it had to dump money in to. So that's why the initial question was wondering if they had carryover or how their budget worked, because the numbers don't seem to add up.
5/6/2009 9:04 AM Customer Support
It's apples to oranges really. The sim teams apply a lump sum of points towards a player based on how much they need the player, so they don't recruit using individual items like home visits and campus visits.
5/6/2009 9:07 AM mlatsko1
So how could we gauge the ability of a school to approach?

For instance, we know what a school can give if they have 1, 2, 3, or 4, open scholarships. (Plus we know how to calc NT money so the only other factor is carryover)

Are the points that a sim team has based on open scholarships? If so, are they similar in value to a CV @ 270 miles? How can they be quanitified to give us some idea of what we're up against?

If none of this is regulated, is it actually possible that a sim team with 1 opening could cause me to spend 50k-75k on a stud player?
5/6/2009 9:39 AM Customer Support
The points allotted to a sim team is based on recruiting budget, so it's limited by number of open scholarships, but they don't use that money the same way. The value they get per dollar is calibrated to be similar to a human school at the same prestige level.
5/6/2009 10:19 AM mlatsko1
How is that recruiting budget determined? Is it the same as a human? Open Scholarships + Tournament Money + Carry Over Points? Can they even carry over points or do they just spend their entire budget every season?
5/6/2009 12:50 PM Customer Support
Yes, the budget is determined the same way, although they don't carry over anything.
11/22/2010 1:52 PM
Y does cs give everyone different info and different quality of help?
11/22/2010 1:57 PM
mlats, that is similar to what i'm getting, but not 100% the same.

still going...
11/22/2010 2:01 PM
and i'm done. Here's the rest of the transcript-- looks like SIM recruits internationals at 200 mile prices regardless of location. I also see a little bit of insinuation that SIM won't main/hard-target an Intl. anyone else? 

11/22/2010 12:56 PM Customer Support
They do have limits based on open scholarships. Human recruiting actions are turned into points based on the team and other factors. The SimAI teams essentially skip that conversion step and directly use the points. The amount of points they have to use depends on openings, prestige, etc. So in the end it's in line with what a human coach would be able to do at that particular school.
11/22/2010 1:05 PM wronoj
so the best way to guess-timate SIM's recruiting efforts for internationals would be to use the baseline $700/1500 human effort line?
11/22/2010 1:08 PM Customer Support
No, the Sims do not factor in distance like that, so the 200 mile cost is probably the closest estimate.
11/22/2010 1:10 PM wronoj
to clarify-- when i am trying to decide to enter a battle for a recruit, human or SIM, i try to figure out how much effort I need to compete, and this is largely based on openings, prestige, distance, and needs. For domestic recruits, I can assume (from FAQs) that SIM's efforts are equivalent to 200 miles away regardless of distance.

It seems impossible that it's the same for INTLs (200 miles), but I was hoping you could clear that up.
11/22/2010 1:11 PM Customer Support
For AI, the distance factor is the same for all recruits, whether they're 10 miles away or 1000 miles away.
11/22/2010 1:14 PM wronoj
sorry, i got out of order here by trying to double-post.

in response to your 3rd post at 1:08--

so while a human with 3 openings would have ~30 Home Visits ($1500) with said international recruit if he spent no money elsewhere, a SIM would have ~90 ($500 cost, which is probably high for 200 miles)? This seems neither reasonable nor how it works in practice.
11/22/2010 1:46 PM Customer Support
What makes this difficult to explain is that the AI teams don't think in terms of money at all. They don't even use the recruiting actions that you do. They have a pool of points that they directly distribute to their targeted recruits. They put more points toward higher priority targets. When a human coach recruits, actions are converted into points based on prestige, etc. So at that point points are used to compare schools. The amount of points that a particular AI school gets to distribute is based mainly on openings and prestige.
11/22/2010 1:57 PM wronoj
Let me re-phrase it, to see if I'm understanding...

If a SIM with 3 openings wants only one player, he'll put x% of his effort on that guy. It's published that his effort is equivalent to a human's effort at 200 miles given same prestige (please let me know if that's wrong)-- ie, his points would be the same as mine if i were 200 miles from the recruit, had same prestige, same # of openings.

If we are both recruiting a non-North American player, does SIM still have the same number of points to put on him?

If so, an A or A+ SIM recruiting an international player as his main target would be close to impossible to knock off (UC-R in Naismith this past recruiting season, for example). Whereas the same SIM team recruiting a guy in my back yard could be relatively reasonably knocked off the player.

If SIMs points are diminished by the international-ness of the equation, that makes a huge difference-- the idea that they "are not impacted by distance" at all vs that their efforts would be "in line with what a human coach would be able to do at that particular school".

This is an important thing to know in gauging what battles to join.
11/22/2010 2:23 PM Customer Support
All of that is correct, but you don't know how hard a Sim team is to knock off without knowing how high they value that player.
11/22/2010 2:31 PM wronoj
I realize that, but you didn't answer my question: If we are both recruiting a non-North American player, does SIM still have the same number of points to put on him as he would if the player were North American?
11/22/2010 2:32 PM Customer Support
Yes.
11/22/2010 2:33 PM wronoj
Thanks.

11/22/2010 2:35 PM
i am not sure what people were telling you in the original thread, which i have not seen. but what CS seems to be saying, i thought was exactly the general consensus among coaches. sims recruit totally differently, and are not impacted by distance, no matter if its international or not. the conclusion being it can be prohibitively expensive to recruit against a sim for internationals.

i also personally feel like sims are not impacted by prestige to the effect they should be. but thats just my observation, i haven't heard other coaches support that.
11/22/2010 3:16 PM
I was always under the impression that SIMs recruited with "recruiting credits" not $. They will keep putting in effort via credits as long as they are not knocked off, and credits are not affected by distance.  So pretty much what CS has answered. 
11/22/2010 3:19 PM
Posted by scottyj74 on 11/22/2010 1:12:00 PM (view original):

Either the person who replied to your ticket is completely clueless and was talking out his a$$ or everyone in CS is completely clueless because I asked the same question a couple months ago and received a totally different answer. When I submitted my ticket about international recruits I was told the SIM recruited them at the same cost we would and they received no discount or mileage advantage.

Post your ticket!
11/22/2010 4:44 PM
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