• Small reduction to fatigue rate - one of the drawbacks to FCP is that it causes your starters to get tired more quickly, which generally leads to more playing time for a weaker bench. This may be a small reduction, but any reduction to fatigue rate increases the effectiveness of the FCP. In the dev. chat, Seble says this was done because players average fewer minutes in HD than in RL. As someone mentioned in the chat, in RL players do not get pulled at "fairly fresh" but what no one has mentioned is that, in RL, no one runs a FCP with 10 players (if anyone runs one at all). Since so many teams are still running FCP, of course the HD starters' minutes should be lower. They are running around non-stop on defense!
• Lowered 2-point and 3-point FG% - another of the penalties for FCP is that - if you don't create a turnover - you are more likely to give up an open look. Well, if the FG% are lowered across the board, those open looks become less of a penalty.
• Reduced average FT grade for new recruits - in theory, FCP (rightfully) causes more fouls, and so more foul shots. If the average FT grade for new recruits (so eventually all players) is reduced, then more of those foul shots will be missed, so the "penalty" for running FCP and having increased fouls is lessened.
• Increased steals - as clarified in the dev chat, this is not supposed to be an increase in turnovers, but instead just that a higher percentage of the turnovers result in steals. Wouldn't this change benefit a FCP press more than anyone else, as it allows for more steals in the backcourt or in transition leading to easy buckets? My center stealing the ball while playing in the middle of a 2-3 zone surely does less to lead to an easy bucket than a steal out of a FCP.

Posted by zbrent716 on 2/3/2011 4:32:00 PM (view original):
Also, I'm not sure that the benefits of increased IQ in press are any different than other defenses, but some people think they are. If there are, it's another benefit, since the increase of recruit levels (without any increase in max levels) means less practice time is required for player rating development, which leaves more practice time for getting the whole team up to A+ in zone.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 2/3/2011 4:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 2/3/2011 4:32:00 PM (view original):
Also, I'm not sure that the benefits of increased IQ in press are any different than other defenses, but some people think they are. If there are, it's another benefit, since the increase of recruit levels (without any increase in max levels) means less practice time is required for player rating development, which leaves more practice time for getting the whole team up to A+ in zone.

I don't see how needing higher IQ in the press is a benefit. Low IQ players in the press is definitely bad. I start my FR for Drew and they last for about 10min before fouling out.

But I do agree with your first 4 points, press is pretty good. Is it better than m2m? hard to say.

Posted by zbrent716 on 2/3/2011 4:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 2/3/2011 4:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 2/3/2011 4:32:00 PM (view original):
Also, I'm not sure that the benefits of increased IQ in press are any different than other defenses, but some people think they are. If there are, it's another benefit, since the increase of recruit levels (without any increase in max levels) means less practice time is required for player rating development, which leaves more practice time for getting the whole team up to A+ in zone.

I don't see how needing higher IQ in the press is a benefit. Low IQ players in the press is definitely bad. I start my FR for Drew and they last for about 10min before fouling out.

But I do agree with your first 4 points, press is pretty good. Is it better than m2m? hard to say.

That idea is based on the premise that players benefit more from a high press IQ (or are penalized more with a low press IQ, depending how you look at it). If that really is the case, getting to max levels with fewer practice minutes means more minutes left over for practicing O/D.

It means fewer games (by any team with any D) played at low IQ levels and more games played with high IQ. If the relative impact of IQ is the same across the board, then this doesn't benefit one defense over the other. If the impact is not the same (that is, press is hurt more by low IQ or benefits more from high IQ), then this is another new benefit for FCP.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 2/3/2011 5:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 2/3/2011 4:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 2/3/2011 4:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 2/3/2011 4:32:00 PM (view original):
Also, I'm not sure that the benefits of increased IQ in press are any different than other defenses, but some people think they are. If there are, it's another benefit, since the increase of recruit levels (without any increase in max levels) means less practice time is required for player rating development, which leaves more practice time for getting the whole team up to A+ in zone.

I don't see how needing higher IQ in the press is a benefit. Low IQ players in the press is definitely bad. I start my FR for Drew and they last for about 10min before fouling out.

But I do agree with your first 4 points, press is pretty good. Is it better than m2m? hard to say.

That idea is based on the premise that players benefit more from a high press IQ (or are penalized more with a low press IQ, depending how you look at it). If that really is the case, getting to max levels with fewer practice minutes means more minutes left over for practicing O/D.

It means fewer games (by any team with any D) played at low IQ levels and more games played with high IQ. If the relative impact of IQ is the same across the board, then this doesn't benefit one defense over the other. If the impact is not the same (that is, press is hurt more by low IQ or benefits more from high IQ), then this is another new benefit for FCP.

That's not really how I understand it at all. Let's say you have 3 players at C IQ, same stats across the board. C IQ in zone means the player plays at 80% of his efficiency, C in m2m means 75%, C in press means 70%. Meanwhile, A+ in any set = 100% efficiency.  This is clearly hurting the press team with no real benefit. 

Posted by tianyi7886 on 2/3/2011 6:24:00 PM (view original):
I still don't understand how getting to higher efficiency earlier is a disadvantage for the zone. Let's make the analysis more extreme so the results are more clear. Suppose press can only play well with A or higher IQ, and you can put as many minutes into O/D w/o diminishing returns. If this is the case, you would probably put up 50-80min in def to get ur def IQ to A or higher asap. In order to do so, you would either 1) sacrifice player ratings development, or 2) take really high WE players so they still grow well w/o alot of individual practice. #2 is a huge disadvantage which limits how many players you can take. 

Posted by zbrent716 on 2/3/2011 6:17:00 PM (view original):
I haven't been around in HD for all that long, but when I first started I heard of (and saw) a ton of FCP teams doing very well - probably better than their ratings would indicate. This apparently wasn't my imagination, as soon after I began playing HD, changes were made to reduce the effectiveness of playing FCP. Whether or not those changes went far enough isn't my question (though FCP still seems a bit gimmicky to me to be a base defense). Here's the thing though - 

At least 4 of the current changes stand to make FCP *more* effective once again:

• Small reduction to fatigue rate - one of the drawbacks to FCP is that is causing your starters to get tired more quickly, which generally leads to more playing time for a weaker bench. This may be a small reduction, but any reduction to fatigue rate increases the effectiveness of the FCP. In the dev. chat, Seble says this was done because players average fewer minutes in HD than in RL. As someone mentioned in the chat, in RL players do not get pulled at "fairly fresh" but what no one has mentioned is that, in RL, no one runs a FCP with 10 players (if anyone runs one at all). Since so many teams are still running FCP, of course the HD starters' minutes should be lower. They are running around non-stop on defense!
• Lowered 2-point and 3-point FG% - another of the penalties for FCP is that - if you don't create a turnover - you are more likely to give up an open look. Well, if the FG% are lowered across the board, those open looks become less of a penalty.
• Reduced average FT grade for new recruits - in theory, FCP (rightfully) causes more fouls, and so more foul shots. If the average FT grade for new recruits (so eventually all players) is reduced, then more of those foul shots will be missed, so the "penalty" for running FCP and having increased fouls is lessened.
• Increased steals - as clarified in the dev chat, this is not supposed to be an increase in turnovers, but instead just that a higher percentage of the turnovers result in steals. Wouldn't this change benefit a FCP press more than anyone else, as it allows for more steals in the backcourt or in transition leading to easy buckets? My center stealing the ball while playing in the middle of a 2-3 zone surely does less to lead to an easy bucket than a steal out of a FCP.

So what am I missing? Why doesn't this take us to the next age of dominant FCP teams, assuming we left the prior age originally?

Small reduction to fatigue rate - one of the drawbacks to FCP is that is causing your starters to get tired more quickly, which generally leads to more playing time for a weaker bench. This may be a small reduction, but any reduction to fatigue rate increases the effectiveness of the FCP. In the dev. chat, Seble says this was done because players average fewer minutes in HD than in RL. As someone mentioned in the chat, in RL players do not get pulled at "fairly fresh" but what no one has mentioned is that, in RL, no one runs a FCP with 10 players (if anyone runs one at all). Since so many teams are still running FCP, of course the HD starters' minutes should be lower. They are running around non-stop on defense!

I'm not sure the part I bolded here is entirely true.  While there aren't many teams that run FCP for 40 minutes a game (teams that run the press typically only do it after made baskets or on inbound plays in the backcourt), there are cases where teams do go 10-12 deep when they press.  Growing up an Arkansas Razorback fan I saw plenty of it with Nolan Richardson's 40 Minutes of Hell style of play, which Mike Anderson is still running today at Missouri.  It is rare, but it is done.

Posted by mduncanhogs on 2/3/2011 6:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 2/3/2011 6:17:00 PM (view original):
I haven't been around in HD for all that long, but when I first started I heard of (and saw) a ton of FCP teams doing very well - probably better than their ratings would indicate. This apparently wasn't my imagination, as soon after I began playing HD, changes were made to reduce the effectiveness of playing FCP. Whether or not those changes went far enough isn't my question (though FCP still seems a bit gimmicky to me to be a base defense). Here's the thing though - 

At least 4 of the current changes stand to make FCP *more* effective once again:

• Small reduction to fatigue rate - one of the drawbacks to FCP is that is causing your starters to get tired more quickly, which generally leads to more playing time for a weaker bench. This may be a small reduction, but any reduction to fatigue rate increases the effectiveness of the FCP. In the dev. chat, Seble says this was done because players average fewer minutes in HD than in RL. As someone mentioned in the chat, in RL players do not get pulled at "fairly fresh" but what no one has mentioned is that, in RL, no one runs a FCP with 10 players (if anyone runs one at all). Since so many teams are still running FCP, of course the HD starters' minutes should be lower. They are running around non-stop on defense!
• Lowered 2-point and 3-point FG% - another of the penalties for FCP is that - if you don't create a turnover - you are more likely to give up an open look. Well, if the FG% are lowered across the board, those open looks become less of a penalty.
• Reduced average FT grade for new recruits - in theory, FCP (rightfully) causes more fouls, and so more foul shots. If the average FT grade for new recruits (so eventually all players) is reduced, then more of those foul shots will be missed, so the "penalty" for running FCP and having increased fouls is lessened.
• Increased steals - as clarified in the dev chat, this is not supposed to be an increase in turnovers, but instead just that a higher percentage of the turnovers result in steals. Wouldn't this change benefit a FCP press more than anyone else, as it allows for more steals in the backcourt or in transition leading to easy buckets? My center stealing the ball while playing in the middle of a 2-3 zone surely does less to lead to an easy bucket than a steal out of a FCP.

So what am I missing? Why doesn't this take us to the next age of dominant FCP teams, assuming we left the prior age originally?

Small reduction to fatigue rate - one of the drawbacks to FCP is that is causing your starters to get tired more quickly, which generally leads to more playing time for a weaker bench. This may be a small reduction, but any reduction to fatigue rate increases the effectiveness of the FCP. In the dev. chat, Seble says this was done because players average fewer minutes in HD than in RL. As someone mentioned in the chat, in RL players do not get pulled at "fairly fresh" but what no one has mentioned is that, in RL, no one runs a FCP with 10 players (if anyone runs one at all). Since so many teams are still running FCP, of course the HD starters' minutes should be lower. They are running around non-stop on defense!

I'm not sure the part I bolded here is entirely true.  While there aren't many teams that run FCP for 40 minutes a game (teams that run the press typically only do it after made baskets or on inbound plays in the backcourt), there are cases where teams do go 10-12 deep when they press.  Growing up an Arkansas Razorback fan I saw plenty of it with Nolan Richardson's 40 Minutes of Hell style of play, which Mike Anderson is still running today at Missouri.  It is rare, but it is done.