ML Roster Minimums Topic

patrickm885
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We had a user (mulder613) bring up a good conversation piece through our support ticket system and we wanted to get everyone's take on it.

As you all know the ML roster minimum is currently 20. We still feel that this works fine for offseason roster decisions. However, during the regular season, a team should really never be below 25. 

This specific users proposition is to instate a rule where the ML roster size can never be below 25 during the regular season.

Thoughts?
6/11/2012 10:42 AM
MikeT23
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It might stop some of the roster manipulation(20 game call-up to save an arb year) and it's certainly more realistic but, because of all the off days, it's not necessary.

I sometimes start the season with 22-23 and feel like I should feel guilty for doing it. 
6/11/2012 10:57 AM
tecwrg
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Many owners (myself included) play the "delay the arb year" game by holding down prospects for the first 20 games of the season.  I usually have another warm body filling that 25th position on my ML roster until I promote my prospect, but there may have been one or more occasions where I have only run with 24 players at the start of the season because I knew I wouldn't need that 25th position in those first 20 games.

I have no problem with a mandatory 25, but a mandatory minimum 24 (or even 23) might make more sense.  I'll agree that 20 is way too low once the regular season has started.
6/11/2012 10:59 AM
MikeT23
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FWIW, there's also the short term injury and demotion penalties that would affect decision-making.

A player gets hurt during ST.  He goes on the 15 day DL.  No one is called up because the roster decisions haven't been made.   At game 8, the player is eligilbe to return.  Because the team had to have 25 players on his roster, someone has to be sent down.   Demotion penalty is possible because he wasn't called up when the player went on the DL.   Now you'd have owners not placing players on the DL to avoid this situation. 
6/11/2012 11:02 AM
patrickm885
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Posted by MikeT23 on 6/11/2012 11:02:00 AM (view original):
FWIW, there's also the short term injury and demotion penalties that would affect decision-making.

A player gets hurt during ST.  He goes on the 15 day DL.  No one is called up because the roster decisions haven't been made.   At game 8, the player is eligilbe to return.  Because the team had to have 25 players on his roster, someone has to be sent down.   Demotion penalty is possible because he wasn't called up when the player went on the DL.   Now you'd have owners not placing players on the DL to avoid this situation. 
This is a good point, maybe the demotion penalty could / should be reduced?

I know there is a thread that talks about the demotion penalty and it's affects. There were some strong arguments in there that I felt made a lot of sense.




6/11/2012 11:09 AM
MikeT23
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One of the "solutions" I thought of(but didn't post because I asked those opposed to demotion penalties to come up with something) was to eliminate demotion penalties up to 25 games into the season.

I thought of it, in part, because I start the season with 22-23 players from time to time.   I would start with 25 but, if I'm calling up players to save the arb year, I didn't want a demotion penalty for my part-timers.   Eliminating the demotion penalty up to game 25 would eliminate the need to do that and it's too early for owners to throw in the towel by sending young studs down.

And, although I don't want to hijack the thread, demotion penalties are a necessity.   You read the thread.  You know we'd manipulate the hell out of our BL rosters if they didn't exist. 
6/11/2012 11:24 AM
shobob
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Posted by MikeT23 on 6/11/2012 11:24:00 AM (view original):
One of the "solutions" I thought of(but didn't post because I asked those opposed to demotion penalties to come up with something) was to eliminate demotion penalties up to 25 games into the season.

I thought of it, in part, because I start the season with 22-23 players from time to time.   I would start with 25 but, if I'm calling up players to save the arb year, I didn't want a demotion penalty for my part-timers.   Eliminating the demotion penalty up to game 25 would eliminate the need to do that and it's too early for owners to throw in the towel by sending young studs down.

And, although I don't want to hijack the thread, demotion penalties are a necessity.   You read the thread.  You know we'd manipulate the hell out of our BL rosters if they didn't exist. 
This seems like a reasonable solution.
6/11/2012 11:26 AM
shobob
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I also agree with tec that 24 would be a better minimum to enforce.
6/11/2012 11:28 AM
tecwrg
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24 also addresses MikeT's DL concern.  Until you get the owner who then complains about two guys on the DL.  But you gotta draw the line somewhere.
6/11/2012 11:30 AM
MikeT23
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Regardless of the minimum, or the penalty for not being there, people will find a way to exploit it.    But 20 is too low.   MLB teams might be shorthanded for a few days because of a short term injury(meaning they don't DL a player who'll be out 4-6 days) but no MLB team starts the season with 22 players on the BL roster. 
6/11/2012 11:35 AM
hypnotoad
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A higher minimum will result in more decision making, and decision making is what makes HBD fun. I also like Mike's suggestion of an early season honeymoon period for the demotion penalties. They are absolutely necessary but early season juggling shouldn't have as great of an impact.
6/11/2012 11:44 AM
tecwrg
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I'm not sold on the "reduce or eliminate" demotion penaltes as suggested above.

That 25th guy who is a placeholder for either a guy on the DL or for a guy who will be called up after game 20 is typically going to be a AAAA guy anyways.  If a demotion penalty "hurts" him enough so that it's a problem, he should be easily replacaeble by another AAAA guy.
6/11/2012 11:57 AM
MikeT23
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For me, it's the difference between a 23 or 25 man roster to start the season.    I know I don't need a 24th-25th man because of the off days.   Why get a demotion penalty on anyone?
6/11/2012 12:01 PM
MikeT23
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To put it another way, if he's on my 40, I care enough about him to not expose him to the R5.  So he has some value to me.   If I'm forced to decide between demotion penalty or being less than 25, I choose less than 25.   If I'm forced to 25 and a possible demotion hit, I sign a TC pitcher or two, put them on my BL roster as mop up men and let them take the penalty(because I'll release them before the season is over).     I'm sure that's not what patrick, or anyone, has in mind when requiring 25 to be carried.

6/11/2012 12:21 PM
jtrinsey
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I regularly start the season with 21 or 22 guys. Actually this past season I had 24 on the roster the whole year until about game 155 when I decided to call a prospect up for the playoffs. I don't really see the need to raise the minimum roster size. I'm pretty sure guys 23-25 don't get any playing time until after the All-Star break (when fatigue might start becoming an issue) anyway.

Agreed with MikeT that I would probably just promote crappy non-prospects to fill those last couple spots rather than burn service time for somebody legit and/or risk a demotion penalty.
6/11/2012 3:06 PM
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