Let's say it's the bottom of the 8th and you're winning by 3 and you put in your A-setup.. he strikes the first two guys out but gives up 5 consecutive singles, scoring two runs and leaving the bases loaded.. Optimally I would want to stretch the closer to 1.1 innings (and having the .1 be a very key spot) rather than put in a secondary setup for the 0.1.

If I put the Closer as "available" in the 8th inning, the engine is going to trot him out there for the start of the 8th, which is wrong.

Is there any way to configure the settings so that the closer can be stretched backwards into the 8th and get out of key set-up jams without ever having the closer start the 8th?

Not that I'm aware of.

In stead of thinking "who can I get a guy listed as "closer" to pitch more in key situations" start thinking about "how can I get as many innings possible for my best pitchers, be they starters or relievers".

the set up of the game doesn't allow for such actions as your requesting.  You can set your "closer" up to come in before the 9th, but there is no garuntee the sim will choose them (though I suspect that they may in the scenerio you described)  However, there are 27 outs needed to win a game unless it goes extras.  If you have a guy in the bullpen that can pitch 100 innings, don't limit him to a "closer" role, put him in setup/A status and let him pitch the 7th, 8th and/or 9th inning.  A run conceeded in the 7th is as important as the run conceeded in the 9th.  There are very few pitchers I list as "closer", mainly guys with very good ratings, but stamina/durability ratings that say they'll only pitch about 50 innings a year.  Putting them as a closer, rather than a setup guy, reduces the number of times they'll enter the game, therefor limiting the amount of times they are worn down and unavailable.

Live play.

Thanks tec. If the developers still exist and haven't retired thanks to their Fox buyout money, maybe that can be added like how they have the little box for "use closer in save situations only" they can make a box that says "use closer early to get out of 2-out set-up jams".

taz- a team's best reliever should always be its closer and from an actual baseball game theory perspective that's not open for debate (and if you think it is, we can have that chat sometime somewhere else via sitemail or something so that I can rebut all of your arguments) because quality >>> volume when it comes to that particular resource.  [in the HBD world it could be open to debate because a sim can never be written to perfection]

Would you consider a tie game less important to have your best pitcher pitch than one with a 1-3 run lead?

depends on the inning. if the game is tied in the 7th or 8th then you should save the closer. if it's the 9th then you might want to use the closer for the 9th and 10th (and 11th if he's mowing guys down efficiently enough.) hopefully that's enough time to score the winning run, esp if I'm going against a setup guy because my opponent wasted his best reliever in the 8th. "Always save your closer until tomorrow." The best closer is one you'll never need to use

I like to go with 2-3 premium setup men of equal caliber.

Posted by pjfoster13 on 1/22/2014 6:35:00 PM (view original):
Thanks tec. If the developers still exist and haven't retired thanks to their Fox buyout money, maybe that can be added like how they have the little box for "use closer in save situations only" they can make a box that says "use closer early to get out of 2-out set-up jams".

taz- a team's best reliever should always be its closer and from an actual baseball game theory perspective that's not open for debate (and if you think it is, we can have that chat sometime somewhere else via sitemail or something so that I can rebut all of your arguments) because quality >>> volume when it comes to that particular resource.  [in the HBD world it could be open to debate because a sim can never be written to perfection]

Disagree completely with your comments on the closer role.  There are numerous examples of when the most critical out in a ballgame may come in the 6th or 7th innings, and not necessarily the 8th or 9th.  Holding back your best resource for the ninth inning in order to add a digit to his stats (i.e. the save), rather than when he can provide the most value, is ludicrous.  The value that's been put on the save, and the way MLB manager's manage towards save opportunities for their closers, have affected the game for the worse rather than the better.

Also, and this is probably more important in HBD than in MLB, if you are limiting the number of innings your best reliever can pitch by making him the closer, you are doing your team a great disservice.

Many HBD owners have done away with the closer role altogether for that reason alone.

The purpose of the post was to inquire whether this option could be configured and it's not. The purpose of the post was not to debate bullpen game theory.  I am perfectly fine with doing that if anyone wants, but that was not the purpose.  I am well aware that many ppl within the HBD community think that they're they're re-inventing the wheel with cutting edge strategy but in general, the elements from tec's most recent post can be categorically disproven by logic.

There's two metaphors I can make- one is that pitching changes are like pawn moves in chess. Once they are done they can't be undone, so using the best pitcher too soon (and for too long in one game) is incorrect, and two is that using the closer in the 7th inning is like standing on 16 vs a face in blackjack. Objectively, more than 50% of the time if you hit you will bust and automatically lose so intuitively it seems incorrect but in the longrun it contributes to your overall winrate. Standing loses more often in the longrun. Innings value analysis must be evaluated within the context of a larger sample size (ie 7 games, 30 games, 162 games, etc) rather than within the context of one singular game. Indeed within one singular game it can be objectively correct to use the closer early and often (just like card counters can correctly deviate, on occasion) but in general it is better to use that player in shorter intervals across multiple games rather than in longer intervals in a fewer number of games.

An interesting article on the subject of closers in real life, since that's where the conversation ended up:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/oak/anthony-castrovince-signing-free-agent-closers-too-tempting-for-mlb-teams?ymd=20131121&content_id=64090340&vkey=news_mlb

This is a simulated game.   Players don't have feelings.   They don't get "up" or "down".   The wind is not taken out of their sails because a 3 run lead is blown in the 9th because their best pitcher was unavailable.   They don't wilt under pressure. 

Obviously, you do not want your best pitcher in the game during a 9-1 blowout.   However, when the score is 4-3 with a runner on 2nd and one out, you should want him in the game.   Whether it's the 6th inning or the 9th. 

Pitchers have finite number of innings in their arms in HBD.    You need 1440 to 1480 most seasons.    If your best pitcher is capable of 140ish and you set him up so that he only gets 70, you've done a poor job.   You took your best pitcher, capable of giving you 10% of your required innings, and gave him 5%.  That's akin to sitting your best hitter, capable of playing 150 games, against the sub .500 teams and playing him in 75 games against contenders.   No one would even think of doing that.   So why would you do that with your best pitcher?

Another way to look at it: the most valuable out a pitcher can get in a game is the third out in each of the nine innings.  The odds of scoring any runs in an inning after the third out is made is 0.0%.

Getting the third out in the 6th inning when the bases are loaded has far more value than getting the first out with the bases empty in the ninth inning.  Yet guess where the traditional "closer", i.e. the best reliever, is being used more often?

I'm sure Mike and tec remember Jeff Weaver losing a WS game in the 14th inning or whatever against the Marlins with Mo sitting in the bullpen, waiting for the Yankees to get a lead.  I hated the Yankees and was ****** Torre threw Jeff ******* Weaver out there.  Moron.

Managing around a statistic (i.e., the save) is the dumbest thing a manager can do.