After all these years, I really do think there is something wrong with the way SLB handles modern relief pitchers. In general, there seems to be just too much success at the plate against them.

Anyone have any data analysis and/or hypotheses?

they give up a fair amount of HR's and a lot of them don't even have 1 ip/g, which kills their in -game stamina

I agree with you ArlenWilliam.  I see the same thing all the time.  Given the choice, I always prefer short-inning starting pitchers (Carlos, Niggeling, etc.) because those guys seem to always pitch better than Gagne, Eckersley, Rivera, etc.. 

I think bottomlee already got it with his 2nd point.  The HRs aren't really a big problem for most of the best arms, but the ~1 IP/game is a big issue.  By the time they've thrown 15 pitches, a lot of these guys have energy in the low 80s or even high 70s.  By the time they get to 20 pitches most of them are in the 50s or 60s.  Once they strike out a hitter, which many of them do frequenly, and put one guy on base, they may have a hard time finishing an inning.  Watching Gagne, Eck, and Mo pitch in a few LIVE games will clear everything up real quickly.  It shouldn't be surprising.  Most starters can't really maintain their RL IP/game in the sim without a substantial performance hit.  The level of the competition just drives pitches/inning above the calculated allowance most of the time at $80 million and higher caps.  If starters can't do it, why should you expect relievers to be able to do it?  And if they can't maintain their RL 1 IP/game, they do decline a bit in utility.

If you're willing to set the PC very low, they can be effective. But usually not worth the money

Posted by dahsdebater on 12/10/2015 8:38:00 PM (view original):
I think bottomlee already got it with his 2nd point.  The HRs aren't really a big problem for most of the best arms, but the ~1 IP/game is a big issue.  By the time they've thrown 15 pitches, a lot of these guys have energy in the low 80s or even high 70s.  By the time they get to 20 pitches most of them are in the 50s or 60s.  Once they strike out a hitter, which many of them do frequenly, and put one guy on base, they may have a hard time finishing an inning.  Watching Gagne, Eck, and Mo pitch in a few LIVE games will clear everything up real quickly.  It shouldn't be surprising.  Most starters can't really maintain their RL IP/game in the sim without a substantial performance hit.  The level of the competition just drives pitches/inning above the calculated allowance most of the time at $80 million and higher caps.  If starters can't do it, why should you expect relievers to be able to do it?  And if they can't maintain their RL 1 IP/game, they do decline a bit in utility.

It's this reason I've always had serious problems with how in-game fatigue works. IP/G is an average -- above average outings should already be factored in. Really we should be able to get double the IP/G output without serious fatigue issues for RPs, and some amount more than 1x for SPs.

I think a couple factors may come into play, schwarze, but I doubt it covers it all. The two I'm thinking of are:

1. The bases-on-balls balloon, where a pitcher that is a bit generous meets SLB batters that take a lot of walks. I think in reality, the factors don't increase chances of a walk in such cases quite so much as doing it by hard mathematical projection.

2. It seems modern pitchers don't just give up more home runs than deadball pitchers, they also seem to give up more doubles, even when #ERC/#ERA numbers are similar.

(Pitches per game shouldn't be a factor as long as an SLB pitcher simply stays within his parameters. Edit: if it is a factor, that's a big problem.)

Yes it seems the modern pitchers do give up more XBH than the deadball pitchers. I will defer to the tech savvy to determine why...

I wonder if many of us here simply underestimate how much better lineups here are to those that the pitchers actually faced...even at a moderately inflated salary cap like $90 or $100M, most pitchers see vastly higher numbers. I for one do not see $80M as a low cap league. It may be a bit better than average. Park and theme contribute as well...

Perhaps the old school hitters really were more disciplined. The modern pitchers face many hitters with terrible BB/SO ratios. When exposed to the earlier hitters, are they simply not as effective due to facing a more quality hitter? Back in the day you didn't see lineups full of guys with 100 K's in a season...

How much of the inflation is simply higher batted balls in play?

Does normalization need tweaking?

I suspect that guys like Harry Walker, Richie Ashburn and Joe Cunningham would have no problem finding their way into today's lineups...they got themselves out a heck of a lot less than today's hitters...

Walker was a good, not great player. Struck out 175 times in just under 3,000 plate appearances. Yogi struck out 414 times in well over 8,000...a much different approach to hitting than we see now.

Looking at bbref...

NL 2015 BB/9 avg 2.9, SO/9 7.9
NL 1915 BB/9 avg 2.6, SO/9 3.6

The modern game is specialized, full of power arms. Fundamentally different than the earlier era...most modern hitters swing for the fences. They do not adjust, even with two strikes...

Yes a Randy Choate type pitcher will fatigue quickly. Even in RL he's toast prior to 20 pitches in an appearance. Is rather remarkable how quickly a starter will fatigue here in relief. Having not played live for awhile i found that alarming. Kudos to elbirdo for pointing out just how severe that can be...

As a rule i employ 12 or 13 pitchers. In a tight or extra inning game Sparky will take an all hands on deck approach...seems better to go conservative on pitch counts, and have more available arms.

Pardon me if I have spent too much time here stating the obvious. I for one would like to see less of Walsh/Joss, and see the Carlton's and Koufax's have more success in the Sim.

I always thought it was bullshit that pitchers aren't penalized for appearance fatigue at nearly the way they are for in game fatigue. At vey least, in game fatigue should be be reduced for real life relievers.