Recruiting at a Distance - Needs Fixed Topic

sully712
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I have always known that distance plays a factor in recruiting. But I never knew how much until the last couple days. I was in DI recruiting a C. The C was about 500 miles from me and 40 miles from the other school. At the end, the player signed with the other school. Here is what we spent:

My School (B prestige): 35k + 20 minutes promised

Other School (B+ prestige): 17k and no promises

How does that work? I basically had no shot to sign this kid. I'm at a school where there are rarely any recruits within 100 miles, usually the closest is about 150. To have any chance, they need to fix how big of an impact distance plays in recruiting. At this point, I will not recruit outside of 200 miles anymore and this will prevent me from really turning the program around.

Are there any plans to fix this?
10/8/2009 11:30 AM
oldresorter
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I might be in the minority here, but I think that you spent enough money to get very close to winning or winning - a couple of comments about this, may or may not apply to your situation:

first and foremost, distance requires you must overcome about a 2X disadvantage either by money or some other means, so your work is cut out to win

money and promises spent later than mid day 1 are less effective than money spent earlier.

prestige could account for a large part of the diff (over half), esp if you are a low b and the other school a hi B+ - this is ticky, because you could almost be equal if you are a hi B and he a low B+, or could be very far apart, in the opposite case, you have no way of knowing, and is a random factor that makes this game more fun, it would be pretty sad if we knew exactly what we needed to spend each time.

using the right combo of HV's and CV's is under-rated in competitive recruiting, pretty sure some coaches do this better than others - I am not sure if anycoach has come out and explained this, I know I keep d1 recruiting info pretty much to myself

not sure if distance is going to get fixed (and i do have a few suggestions on how), but recruiting is the most important part of this game, sure be a shame if an overcorrection went into effect, I would tread slowly here, since we have played nearly 400 seasons of this as a distance / prestige based auction, and it has worked reasonably well????
10/8/2009 1:27 PM
mmt0315
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I think its fine the way it is...There is no way that a school that is a lower prestige should be able to go into a higher prestige schools backyard from over 500 miles away and take a player...its simply not realistic...and while there are somethings which wont/cant mirror reality because of the nature of this being a simulated game there is no reason recruiting cant/shouldnt be close.

Everytime this subject comes up it appears the person who advocates changes wants more of a straight up auction process...meaning whoever spends the most gets the player...IMO prestige should play the biggest factor because in reality it is the biggest factor...distance while not as important is still important for the reason mentioned above.

The thing I'd like to see changed it the impact of a promised start...To most kids a promise to start their FR year is a big part of the decision making process and in reality might be the most effective way to compensate for distance/prestige/money differences between schools. I'd also make enforcement of same an all or nothing process with no room for interpretation. Meaning, you promise a start, and the kid doesn't start all his games, he transfers.
10/8/2009 1:42 PM
mmt0315
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Sully, check this thread...coaches with much more knowledge than myself explained recruiting distance and prestige about a month ago.

http://www.whatifsports.com/forums/threads.asp?ForumID=30&TopicID=394494&SearchPagePosition=4&search=mmt0315&searchMode=&searchIn=Author&forum=30&searchSort=topic&ReturnPage=Search
10/8/2009 1:46 PM
mccabemi
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I know people generally like recruiting, however I'd like to see distance taken out of the equation to better reflect reality as well. I also think finding out a players attributes should be more of a factor (right now we see the ratings of everyone, I'd change that)- and should be the part of the equation that costs the most money. Therefore, more successful conferences are able to recruit nationally by finding out the attributes of top players around the country, whereas unsuccessful conferences must recruit regionally due to budget restraints. Anyway... I won't waste my breath.
10/8/2009 1:50 PM
sully712
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I'm not saying it should be a huge fix, but spending twice as much with what seems to be similar prestige should be able to overcome a few hundred miles of distance.
10/8/2009 1:51 PM
dalter
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Quote: Originally Posted By sully712 on 10/08/2009
I have always known that distance plays a factor in recruiting. But I never knew how much until the last couple days. I was in DI recruiting a C. The C was about 500 miles from me and 40 miles from the other school. At the end, the player signed with the other school. Here is what we spent:

My School (B prestige): 35k + 20 minutes promised

Other School (B+ prestige): 17k and no promises

How does that work?

You've played 2,800+ games of HD. Are you telling me you weren't aware of what it costs to recruit at varying distances.

I basically had no shot to sign this kid. I'm at a school where there are rarely any recruits within 100 miles, usually the closest is about 150.

You have a school in California. That simply can not be possible. There are programs that are a lot more remote than yours.

To have any chance, they need to fix how big of an impact distance plays in recruiting. At this point, I will not recruit outside of 200 miles anymore and this will prevent me from really turning the program around.

Not sure I follow. You've made five straight postseasons and are up to a B prestige in the Big West.

Are there any plans to fix this?

There is definitely a disconnect in distance recruiting between HD and real life (i.e. a UNC can't go into LA and beat Pepperdine). But this is set up (at least in part) to help low/mid teams stay more competitive than they generally are in real life.

You may think this is good or bad, but it's definitely how WIS wants it.

It's also part of the strategy of the game. In your example, a smart recruiter would've been able to see a mile away that he was at a tremendous disadvantage and devoted his resources elsewhere. You can definitely recruit long distance, you just have to pick your spots (and a higher prestige team with a major distance advantage is generally not the way to go).
10/8/2009 1:52 PM
dalter
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Quote: Originally Posted By mccabemi on 10/08/2009I know people generally like recruiting, however I'd like to see distance taken out of the equation to better reflect reality as well. I also think finding out a players attributes should be more of a factor (right now we see the ratings of everyone, I'd change that)- and should be the part of the equation that costs the most money. Therefore, more successful conferences are able to recruit nationally by finding out the attributes of top players around the country, whereas unsuccessful conferences must recruit regionally due to budget restraints. Anyway... I won't waste my breath
I've been on my soapbox about this for years:

Reality for reality's sake is BAD. The goal is not blindly replicating reality, the goal is what is best for HD. Sometimes that is replicating reality, and sometimes it's not.
10/8/2009 1:53 PM
wisefella99
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Quote: Originally posted by sully712 on 10/08/2009I have always known that distance plays a factor in recruiting.  But I never knew how much until the last couple days.  I was in DI recruiting a C.  The C was about 500 miles from me and 40 miles from the other school.  At the end, the player signed with the other school.  Here is what we spent:My School (B prestige): 35k + 20 minutes promisedOther School (B+ prestige): 17k and no promisesHow does that work?  I basically had no shot to sign this kid.  I'm at a school where there are rarely any recruits within 100 miles, usually the closest is about 150.  To have any chance, they need to fix how big of an impact distance plays in recruiting.  At this point, I will not recruit outside of 200 miles anymore and this will prevent me from really turning the program around.Are there any plans to fix this?

Forget about listing the money, list the # of HV and CV that you each made and then factor in the difference based upon prestige.

I agree with the others, this is what a noobie might be crying over and you are far from being new at this game.

You can say that it is not right, but what is your alternative?

In your specific case and under the current setup, I would be ****** if a lower prestige school came into my backyard and visited the kid less than I did, which I imagine that you did, and yet that kid rejected me despite me giving him more love.
10/8/2009 2:18 PM
sully712
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dalter - I have generally not recruited outside of 200 miles besides internationals. I know it seems odd with so many games but I've generally stayed local. I always knew there was a distance advantage, I just didnt know it was this big. Out of the top 50 players within 200 miles, only one was under 100 miles away. Within 200 miles, I had two players in the top 20 at their respective positions. I decided to take a chance and see how things played out. I had 4 spots and the other school had 2. I was just curious, more than anything, on how big of an impact distance had. Now that I've learned, I will go back to my old ways!
10/8/2009 2:20 PM
sully712
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I'm not complaining that I lost the guy. I knew the risk going in and I was okay with not getting the guy. I wanted to see what happend. If I spent twice as much on the kid, dont you think I visited him just as much as the other school though?
10/8/2009 2:21 PM
sully712
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My point is more that I think distance has too much of an impact. That is basically what I am trying to say.
10/8/2009 2:22 PM
wisefella99
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Quote: Originally posted by sully712 on 10/08/2009I'm not complaining that I lost the guy.  I knew the risk going in and I was okay with not getting the guy.  I wanted to see what happend.  If I spent twice as much on the kid, dont you think I visited him just as much as the other school though?
Sully, you can tell that by looking at what the HV and CV cost you and then looking for a recruit that is only 40 miles away from you and look at those costs. My guess is that you paid more than twice as much for the same amount of visits before the prestige difference even came into play.
10/8/2009 2:27 PM
acn24
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To really judge we'd need to see how each of you spent your money. For example, if you focused on only HVs, his 17K would have gotten him about 54 HVs, and your 35K would have gotten you about 45, with a prestige advantage I think that makes him a clear winner.

I also agree with dalter that completely taking distance out of recruiting may make the game realistic but that it could hamper game play. Do we really want dominant teams scooping up the best players every single year? Ultimately recruiting in HD will never simulate real recruiting because real recruiting is almost all personality driven. We don't have the ability to connect with recruits, or hire a relative or AAU coach, or anything else that is really the significant part of real life recruiting.

That isn't to say that recruiting is perfect, there are some things I'd like to see added:

1. Feeder schools - I'm sure it adds too much info to the database, but I'd love to see the system track what high schools you've signed kids from. If my career track has kept me in the greater NY area (say NYU>Dowling>Manhattan>St. John's) and I've signed multiple kids from multiple high schools in the tri-state area, I should get a little bonus on kids from those schools if I head to Indiana. The relationships don't suddenly end because I've taken a job 750 miles away.

2. Along those lines - package recruits. Less likely in HD than in real life, but if you're recruiting multiple kids from the same HS, you get a little bonus.

3. Package trips - It seems counter intuitive to me that all travel is round-trip. I'd like there to be some way for there to be a reduction in costs if you go to the same state or region in the same cycle. For example, say you are at UCLA and you are recruiting 2 kids from Utah. You aren't going to go from LA to Salt Lake and back for one kid and do the same thing for a different kid.
10/8/2009 2:27 PM
zhawks
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Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 10/08/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By mccabemi on 10/08/2009
I know people generally like recruiting, however I'd like to see distance taken out of the equation to better reflect reality as well. I also think finding out a players attributes should be more of a factor (right now we see the ratings of everyone, I'd change that)- and should be the part of the equation that costs the most money. Therefore, more successful conferences are able to recruit nationally by finding out the attributes of top players around the country, whereas unsuccessful conferences must recruit regionally due to budget restraints. Anyway... I won't waste my breath.
I've been on my soapbox about this for years:

Reality for reality's sake is BAD. The goal is not blindly replicating reality, the goal is what is best for HD. Sometimes that is replicating reality, and sometimes it's not.

I was going to say the same thing daalter, losing distance altogether would be a horrible idea.
10/8/2009 2:27 PM
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