Ok, This Really has to Stop... Topic

colonels19
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People think that the rankings and selection processes aren't a glaring problem, I strongly disagree...exhibit A.

Quincy, in D2 Tark coached by dpatterson7 went 12-16 this past season (41)...his RPI is 48 and his SOS is 1...he loses by 12 in the 2nd round of his conference tournament, and despite his #1 SOS, he went 2-8 against teams in the top 25...the result you ask?

*Kettle Drum* THE #1 seed in the NIT (PI)

REALLY?! Here's exactly why RPI shouldn't be the main determinant of tournament seeds/teams in this game. Dpatterson7 manipulated his RPI rating by scheduling 9 of his 10 non-cons AWAY, and the biggest problem with the RPI is that it seems to decrease the importance/weight on winning and losing, which is why you play the games to begin with...TO WIN...not to merely compete against good/great schedules. SOS and RPI each trumping W-L is an absolute travesty.

The highest, below .500 team I had in my 2009 BPI-NCAAB rankings was Iowa at #95 and they were only 2 games under .500 (15-17), not 4. In my rankings, all wins are rated higher than all losses, if they aren't, then you're inherently suggesting that winning and losing don't matter and/or are secondary when they're actually, as I said, the reason why people play games/compete...TO WIN!

My ranking system would shore this up in a heartbeat...talking my real life format...not the OTR SOS format, so chill....curious to hear others thoughts here.

FWIW, I'm knocking the system, not dpatterson7 for playing the way he has.
1/3/2010 8:42 PM
sully712
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I dont know that I agree...in your system (which I admitedly do not know) you say all wins are higher than losses. I dont think that is realistic. That would hurt teams that play in the good conferences and go 8-8. Playing the #1 SOS, in my opinion, is worth more than winning games against the #300 SOS. You have to take into account which teams play. Otherwise, there is no reason to schedule any team that you might lose to. Unless I am missing something.
1/3/2010 8:58 PM
tkimble
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So a win against the worst team (since your in Tark, we'll go with Harding the the Gulf South Conference) by one point would outweigh losing to a really good team like SIU, Edwardsville by only one point?
1/3/2010 9:00 PM
colonels19
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Quote: Originally Posted By tkimble on 1/03/2010
So a win against the worst team (since your in Tark, we'll go with Harding the the Gulf South Conference) by one point would outweigh losing to a really good team like SIU, Edwardsville by only one point?
Correct, however remember that it is only 1 game out of 30 or so. You play to WIN the games...you don't play to keep it close, or to just barely lose to the best team out there...moral victories don't exist. You either win or you lose...quality of opponent matters certainly, but WINNING IS KING.

For those of you that think I'm being completely ridiculous here, I offer you an example. North Dakota was my lowest rated team with a winning record last year at 16-12, ranked 299th out of 347. Conversely, Indiana finished 6-25 and ranked 197th out of 347...102 spots higher than North Dakota...so like I said, opponents matter, but WINNING IS KING.

ADD ON: My lowest rated 20 win team was 279th ranked South Dakota at 20-9, and they're rated 82 spots lower than a team that played a better schedule with only 6 wins.
1/3/2010 9:06 PM
jfinn19
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So if I schedule all sims and win every game I'll have the #1 rpi under your system? Your system would ruin HD because everyone would just schedule sims just to get wins. This current system keeps HD competitve.
1/3/2010 9:11 PM
dpatteson7
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The goal isn't to make the PIT, so I made a mistake in scheduling too far up. I was thinking 5-5 Non-Conf and 10-6 in conference and an NT berth as a result when I set that up. I lost a couple close games here and there and got torched by the top 3 teams in my division for 7 of my losses. So, if anything, I ended up hurting myself by playing a tough schedule, since two wins in there probably make me close, if not into, the NT.

You're looking at real life DI, where there are no SIM teams and teams have more non-conference games and preseason tournaments to buoy their records. There aren't any BCS conference teams who are only playing other BCS schools in the non-conference and my experience this year shows you why you wouldn't want to do that from a W/L prospective.

I wouldn't want too much weight on W/L in HD since you'd then be dealing with teams going 24-2 against 24 SIMs and being a #3 seed in the tournament. There is no "eye-test" in a fake game, so it's hard not to use the formula that's already in place in real life that usually gets it close.
1/3/2010 9:12 PM
dpatteson7
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Quote: Originally posted by tkimble on 1/03/2010So a win against the worst team (since your in Tark, we'll go with Harding the the Gulf South Conference) by one point would outweigh losing to a really good team like SIU, Edwardsville by only one point?
I don't think I've ever been within 20 of billy. Some day I'll keep it down to one point.
1/3/2010 9:13 PM
colonels19
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Quote: Originally Posted By jfinn19 on 1/03/2010So if I schedule all sims and win every game I'll have the #1 rpi under your system? Nope, if you see my above post, you'll see that I have a 20 win team ranked 279th out of 347...opponents matter, but winning the game is what you play to do. If you scheduled the 30 worst teams in HD and killed them all, I couldn't really see your BPI ranking being under 100. Your system would ruin HD because everyone would just schedule sims just to get wins. This current system keeps HD competitve. That is completely not the concept.
1/3/2010 9:15 PM
jfinn19
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It sounds like your "system" just allows you to rank the teams however you want. You keep making threads about how HD should use your system and when no one agrees with you you make another one. Take a hint and stop trying to convince everyone that your system works.
1/3/2010 9:20 PM
colonels19
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I actually just tabbed my rankings and if a team were to go 28-0 against the worst schedule possible beating all teams by 50, they would have ranked 136th in my system last year, slightly ahead of 13-17 Oregon State and behind 19-14 Kent State...can you see how this works properly?
1/3/2010 9:21 PM
colonels19
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Quote: Originally Posted By jfinn19 on 1/03/2010
It sounds like your "system" just allows you to rank the teams however you want. You keep making threads about how HD should use your system and when no one agrees with you you make another one. Take a hint and stop trying to convince everyone that your system works.
I have had 3 systems for HD from the get-go...just because you guys can't fathom how a ranking system like this can work logically, doesn't mean that its irrelevant.

I would really have to question your thinking if you were ok with a 12-16 team that went 2-8 against top 25 competition being the #1 OVERALL seed in the PI. Now you want to talk illogical.
1/3/2010 9:22 PM
thewizard2
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In your BPI system, if a team:

Lost to RPI 1,2,3,4,5,6,7

Defeaetd RPI 9,10,11,12,13,14,15

Plug that into your BPI system and tell me that teams RPI
1/3/2010 9:24 PM
colonels19
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Quote: Originally Posted By thewizard2 on 1/03/2010In your BPI system, if a team:

Lost to RPI 1,2,3,4,5,6,7

Defeaetd RPI 9,10,11,12,13,14,15

Plug that into your BPI system and tell me that coaches RP
Point margin..just 1? Just so you know, I will be comparing this in the context of my final 2009 NCAAB rankings, like I did the last comparison.
1/3/2010 9:25 PM
colonels19
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Ok wiz....I tabbed it using a 1 point margin....that 7-7 team would rank 13th just ahead of Syracuse and behind Wake Forest. http://www.bpisports.com/2009ncaab.htm
1/3/2010 9:30 PM
jfinn19
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I really just don't understand how you can say winning is key and rank Oregon ahead of an undefeated team that beat them in your football rankings.
1/3/2010 9:31 PM
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