I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 seasons under my belt and I am still confused on the proper use of the +/- uses in regard to defensive settings. Does a plus setting take away the perimeter by focusing more on it, or does it mean that all of my players will guard their opponent more closely? In the reverse scenario, will my defenders play farther off their man, or is a minus setting mean that the defense just focuses more on the post. Also does this have any effects that may change depending on the defense that a particular school plays? Any help in aiding my understanding is appreciated. Thanks in advance for your time.

Basically, a + will guard your man tighter and a - backs off some. So with a +5 you are inside the guy's jersey and a - 5 you could be an arm's length or further away. My understanding and experience is that it plays the same regardless of type of defense you are running.

You can guarantee that playing a -5 the opponent will shoot more 3s than playing a +5.

With a team full of B or higher IQ's, excluding rebounding as a factor, what is the drawback of playing aggressive defense in the plus 3 or more range all the time? Since I play M2M exclusively, it seems that I would guard the entire floor from PG to C closer (and presumably better with good DEF ratings and IQ). I rarely see any team employ that as a strategy though. So is my thinking flawed or am I missing the point completely? It is time for me to start making better strides in gameplanning, so I feel like I need to get a good grasp on this.

I think that a + defense not only gets beat on tip ins, but also fast guards slashing to the basket.

Quote: Originally posted by bryp777 on 1/05/2010With a team full of B or higher IQ's, excluding rebounding as a factor, what is the drawback of playing aggressive defense in the plus 3 or more range all the time? Since I play M2M exclusively, it seems that I would guard the entire floor from PG to C closer (and presumably better with good DEF ratings and IQ). I rarely see any team employ that as a strategy though. So is my thinking flawed or am I missing the point completely? It is time for me to start making better strides in gameplanning, so I feel like I need to get a good grasp on this.

Well, if you're playing a guy tight he has a better chance of getting by you; especially if he's quick and a good ball handler.

Quote: Originally posted by billabercrom on 1/05/2010

Quote: Originally posted by bryp777 on 1/05/2010With a team full of B or higher IQ's, excluding rebounding as a factor, what is the drawback of playing aggressive defense in the plus 3 or more range all the time? Since I play M2M exclusively, it seems that I would guard the entire floor from PG to C closer (and presumably better with good DEF ratings and IQ). I rarely see any team employ that as a strategy though. So is my thinking flawed or am I missing the point completely? It is time for me to start making better strides in gameplanning, so I feel like I need to get a good grasp on this.

Well, if you're playing a guy tight he has a better chance of getting by you; especially if he's quick and a good ball handler.

That's a very good point. I hadn't thought of it in those terms.

Does anybody see any advantages to a + 2 or +3? It probably cuts down on 3 pt % but if it also cuts down on attempts and sends 'em around you it's not helping much at all. The big men are in their man's shirt and probably can't make the switch but it's all conjecture. The engine, which knows things I don't, almost always goes minus when making a halftime adjustment. It might be nice to be able to set your guards to +2 and the front court to -2 but it also might be nice to be rich.

Quote: Originally posted by bryp777 on 1/05/2010I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 seasons under my belt and I am still confused on the proper use of the +/- uses in regard to defensive settings. Does a plus setting take away the perimeter by focusing more on it, or does it mean that all of my players will guard their opponent more closely? In the reverse scenario, will my defenders play farther off their man, or is a minus setting mean that the defense just focuses more on the post. Also does this have any effects that may change depending on the defense that a particular school plays? Any help in aiding my understanding is appreciated. Thanks in advance for your time.

brian,
the range of effects of the +/- settings are quite wide, and not very well understood. people can give some guidelines, but i suggest for a team you know well, and are confident you can put a good plan out for, you hold everything constant, and observe the effect of a significant switch on the +/- setting.

i do think the defense matters to some extent, as well as the offense, and the tempo. that is why i think your best bet is to experiment in the system you feel most comfortable, to build an understanding in that area. i honestly think there is 0 chance i would have been remotely as successful if i started playing zone, man, press, fb, etc... there are so many variables, so much complication, by focusing on 1 system, i was able to understand it much, much deeper than i ever could have otherwise. reducing the number of variables is huge. so i really suggest you limit your +/- settings to 1 system for starters, it will make the task easier for you.

finally, it is essentially guarding the player closer. i'll give you a few of the factors i am most confident exist in the general case, for each side, in a + vs a -. however, i believe there are definitely more than listed here.
1) better 3 point defense
2) more steals
3) more turnovers forced, outside steals
4) more susceptible to driving guards
5) worse defense of the low post
6) worse rebounding

Quote: Originally posted by coach_billyg on 1/05/2010

Quote: Originally posted by bryp777 on 1/05/2010I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 seasons under my belt and I am still confused on the proper use of the +/- uses in regard to defensive settings. Does a plus setting take away the perimeter by focusing more on it, or does it mean that all of my players will guard their opponent more closely? In the reverse scenario, will my defenders play farther off their man, or is a minus setting mean that the defense just focuses more on the post. Also does this have any effects that may change depending on the defense that a particular school plays? Any help in aiding my understanding is appreciated. Thanks in advance for your time.

brian,
the range of effects of the +/- settings are quite wide, and not very well understood. people can give some guidelines, but i suggest for a team you know well, and are confident you can put a good plan out for, you hold everything constant, and observe the effect of a significant switch on the +/- setting.

i do think the defense matters to some extent, as well as the offense, and the tempo. that is why i think your best bet is to experiment in the system you feel most comfortable, to build an understanding in that area. i honestly think there is 0 chance i would have been remotely as successful if i started playing zone, man, press, fb, etc... there are so many variables, so much complication, by focusing on 1 system, i was able to understand it much, much deeper than i ever could have otherwise. reducing the number of variables is huge. so i really suggest you limit your +/- settings to 1 system for starters, it will make the task easier for you.

finally, it is essentially guarding the player closer. i'll give you a few of the factors i am most confident exist in the general case, for each side, in a + vs a -. however, i believe there are definitely more than listed here.
1) better 3 point defense
2) more steals
3) more turnovers forced, outside steals
4) more susceptible to driving guards
5) worse defense of the low post
6) worse rebounding

coach is right on with these comments.

I would add that you may be more susceptible to fouling on the perimeter. I have no data to back it up but it seems logical. The experimentation that billyg suggests might give more insight into this.

Quote: Originally posted by ernesto_tubb on 1/05/2010Does anybody see any advantages to a + 2 or +3? It probably cuts down on 3 pt % but if it also cuts down on attempts and sends 'em around you it's not helping much at all. The big men are in their man's shirt and probably can't make the switch but it's all conjecture. The engine, which knows things I don't,  almost always goes minus when making a halftime adjustment.  It might be nice to be able to set your guards to +2 and the front court to -2 but it also might be nice to be rich.

An advantage to going + might be more noticeable if the opponent has slow guards with relatively poor ballhandling and athleticism.....but high perimeter. I would think these guards are likely to live on the perimeter and by playing + you can deny them the ball. Since their ball handling/speed is poor they won't be able to drive around you or create their own shot.

i should be clearer, 1) better perimeter defense. it is most obvious with 3 pointers, in particular, 3pta, but i think it very likely helps outside perimeter shots as well.

Adding to the conversation... I play zone, so I look at how well the opposing guards can pass the ball. If they are better passers, I back off to a - defense to guard the passing lanes and vice versa. Another thing I look at is how well the opposing team shoots FTs. If they shoot them well, I back off to a - defense to avoid fouls and vice versa.

That said, my teams are very athletic and fast, so I play a + defense the majority of the time because I like to create havoc. A "minus" defense for me is playing the 0.

Quote: Originally posted by hackerhog on 1/07/2010Adding to the conversation... I play zone, so I look at how well the opposing guards can pass the ball. If they are better passers, I back off to a - defense to guard the passing lanes and vice versa. Another thing I look at is how well the opposing team shoots FTs. If they shoot them well, I back off to a - defense to avoid fouls and vice versa.

That said, my teams are very athletic and fast, so I play a + defense the majority of the time because I like to create havoc. A "minus" defense for me is playing the 0.

Makes sense cause if your fast enough your always a step ahead and if your athletic your less like to be out of position and out of control of your body. I am awaiting a CS response on all this once I get it I will post it up.

a CS response to what, schroedess? what is the question your are asking? without knowing the question or the answer, i would like to caution you not to read too much into it. unless you are just looking for a confirmation that +/- relates to how closely you guard your opponent, you aren't likely to get more info from CS. and even if you do, the details regarding the effects of the +/- are not clear and very subjective, and the low level CS responders have a poor grasp of the game. so you basically have to take anything they tell you as a grain of salt. i am cautioning you without knowing your question or the answer because its almost universally true that coaches expect more out of CS than they can get, which very often leads to misunderstanding and confusion, especially with subject matter like this one.

keep in mind seble is likely not the guy answering your question, and he is probably the only member of CS who is in any position to answer a detailed question on +/- settings. and, CS generally does not want to give out that kind of info, from my experience. even when the top dog does give info in these situations, you need to be careful. the best example i know of is tempo. i made a serious effort to read everything the old admin said on tempo a number of times, because it is such a confusing issue, and his comments could be taken so many ways. he gave answers on a number of occasions, and went as far to say how he uses tempo on his own teams. well, his answers were taken too far by coaches, and as a result, there was mass confusion on tempo for a very long time. many took away that the only effect of tempo was on how quickly the shot was taken, and there was no effect on things like fg%, turnovers, etc... which is now understood to be completely false (at least, i think it is - i am sure there are still some who disagree). the only way to protect yourself it to proceed with caution in analyzing any CS response and making sure you don't take it too far, or out of context!