Dalter’s thread. Topic

I hate being the one to do this as I am well aware that Dalter is doing what he always does and thats trying to improve HD. But I have to say that I think its fairly short sighted to think that one person getting the opinion of what I'd guess is a very small minority of overall HD users and presenting it to Seble as suggestions the "community" thinks would improve the game it potentially more damaging then helpful. I read through the suggestions and there are several I couldnt agree with less.

I hope Seble does not take any suggestions as community sentiment and views them as strictly the opinion of a minority of coaches.

I could be wrong; But I doubt 50% of HD users submitted suggestions and would venture to guess the numbers are probably in the ballpark of 5%.
2/17/2010 9:12 AM
Which suggestions are you looking at? I agree it is a small sample size (probably) but I dont think its a horrible idea what he is doing.
2/17/2010 9:18 AM
Of course not. What you're saying is common sense, there's literally no chance I'd be able to get opinions from 50% of HD users.

But what I am doing is getting opinions from the cross section of users who know HD the best and care about it the most, so to me that is worthwhile. Perfect? Of course not. Still useful? Absolutely.
2/17/2010 9:26 AM
mmt I agree with you that it isn't the whole community but that doesn't mean that there are not good ideas there.
2/17/2010 9:30 AM
1) Mentoring program - Its simply a waste of their time trying to set something like this up and HD can use their time in more efficient manner, on things more important like the Simengine. The problem of a ghost town is not as complicated as the 20 page threads Ive seen. They are worried about their bottom line. Fine, makes sense. 1) Eliminate FREEHD; 2) Put Rewards points back; 3) Get rid of the gift cards Seble was talking about.

As Mlat showed in his research almost no coaches are playing for free under the old rewards points system (I think it was 2 per 10 seasons or something). This will get the vets back to their old DIII dynasties which in turn is good for the game.

2) Impact of Def rating. I think it works the ways its intended. Some people want it to be the only rating reflective of how an individual player will defend. It was never intended to work that way, and I frankly dont see a problem with it being tied to other factors. (SP/ATH/IQ).

3) Sim Engine in general. I personally dont see a problem with it now that the post potential players have cycled through. Sure its easy to point to anomolies in the simulation, which is normal considering how many games are simmed daily you can probably find several a day. But in general it gets it right. What does need to happen and Ive been complaining about this for over a year is more player variations - which it seems is being done in the new update.

4) I have no problem at all with EE. If a team is going to consistantly recruit guys whose evals all say "He has a chance to leave after a year or two" and that same team happens to lose 3-4 players, I'm fine with that, and Ive spoken to various coaches who are as well. The ones complaining are primarily those losing the players.

5) I dont think FT shooting should improve more than a maximum of a full letter grade. Its unrealistic to think an F FT shooter can suddently become a C+, its just not how FT shooting works.

6) Prestige - I dont agree with most of whats there on this subject. IMO (as Ive stated in various threads) Prestige needs to be broken into two. Baseline prestige used for hirings (this goes to supply and demand). Current prestige used for everything else. Baseline should never under and circumstances change.

7) I agree with everything he has there regarding recruiting and in game strategy.

In general I'm not saying Im right or that all those suggestions are nec. bad. Im just saying that Im sure its not even close to a consensous and I hope WIS doesnt make changes based on the forums as it seems they did with potantial. At that time if you remember, you had about 10 coaches screaming at the top of their lungs for potential, WIS changes it and you remember the results.

I didnt wanna really debate his points as theyve been done at length in other threads. But just wanted to put it out there that he doesnt speak on behalf of the community. There are plenty of coaches that never comment in the forums and a ton of others that rarely visit them.

2/17/2010 9:37 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 2/17/2010
Of course not. What you're saying is common sense, there's literally no chance I'd be able to get opinions from 50% of HD users.

But what I am doing is getting opinions from the cross section of users who know HD the best and care about it the most, so to me that is worthwhile. Perfect? Of course not. Still useful? Absolutely.

As I said it wasnt meant as a slight to you, I think what you do for HD is great as youre always looking for ways to improve the game. Its why I was respectful of your request not to post in that forum as not to get it sidetracked. My point really was, I didnt want Seble to look at it and make changes based on it as I think while some of the ideas are great, some arent. Thats all. And when youre comiling your data based on emails, this could be a forum to debate them so your main point doesnt get caught in the clutter.
2/17/2010 9:40 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 2/17/2010mmt I agree with you that it isn't the whole community but that doesn't mean that there are not good ideas there


See Above!
2/17/2010 9:40 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By mmt0315 on 2/17/2010
1) Mentoring program - Its simply a waste of their time trying to set something like this up and HD can use their time in more efficient manner, on things more important like the Simengine. I agree that it doesn't need to be very formal or take a lot of seble's time. I'd like to see something very similar to the HBD mentoring thread...I think that having a pinned list of coaches who are open to sitemails and a few general guidelines (don't just sitemail and ask "So how do I win at this?") would be great.

4) I have no problem at all with EE. If a team is going to consistantly recruit guys whose evals all say "He has a chance to leave after a year or two" and that same team happens to lose 3-4 players, I'm fine with that, and Ive spoken to various coaches who are as well. The ones complaining are primarily those losing the players. My biggest beef with EE is that it tends to be very random on who leaves and who doesn't. I think that there should only be 20-25 kids every season whose evals give the "Will likely leave early" message, but that these 20-25 players should absolutely never see their Senior season. (Possible exception if injuries become a larger part of the game and we see players suffer season ending injuries)The current impacts can determine whether they play 1, 2 or 3 seasons.

2/17/2010 9:58 AM
mmt, i disagree with what you said about the mentoring program. It really wouldn't take much time at all, set up a quick script to email out new users info to the coaches that would like to help and have a button available for 1st time coaches "Check here to recieve an HD Mentor".

Or even easier create a new forum that is only available to active HD users with less then 5 seasons AND selected mentors.
2/17/2010 9:58 AM
mmt Re: EE's - I know we have talked about this before, but you do see ways it could improve, correct?
2/17/2010 10:01 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By mmt0315 on 2/17/2010

1) Mentoring program - Its simply a waste of their time trying to set something like this up and HD can use their time in more efficient manner, on things more important like the Simengine. The problem of a ghost town is not as complicated as the 20 page threads Ive seen. They are worried about their bottom line. Fine, makes sense. 1) Eliminate FREEHD; 2) Put Rewards points back; 3) Get rid of the gift cards Seble was talking about.

As Mlat showed in his research almost no coaches are playing for free under the old rewards points system (I think it was 2 per 10 seasons or something). This will get the vets back to their old DIII dynasties which in turn is good for the game.

Perhaps I'm underestimating, but I just don't see this as taking alot of time and resources for WIS. The onus would mostly be on the coaches. Agreed on the rest.

2) Impact of Def rating. I think it works the ways its intended. Some people want it to be the only rating reflective of how an individual player will defend. It was never intended to work that way, and I frankly dont see a problem with it being tied to other factors. (SP/ATH/IQ).

Personally, I disagree with this. I don't view def rating in a bubble, nor do I think it should be viewed that way. That said, having a guy with good sp/ath and really low def is like alot of real life players who are talented but don't have the will or desire to play defense ... and those guys are defensive liabilities in real life.

3) Sim Engine in general. I personally dont see a problem with it now that the post potential players have cycled through. Sure its easy to point to anomolies in the simulation, which is normal considering how many games are simmed daily you can probably find several a day. But in general it gets it right. What does need to happen and Ive been complaining about this for over a year is more player variations - which it seems is being done in the new update.

I think you're in a very small minority on this one.

4) I have no problem at all with EE. If a team is going to consistantly recruit guys whose evals all say "He has a chance to leave after a year or two" and that same team happens to lose 3-4 players, I'm fine with that, and Ive spoken to various coaches who are as well. The ones complaining are primarily those losing the players.

Those evals are meaningless, and you know it. They say that for every single 4/5 star player. Seble has openly admitted that the EE process can be improved upon. FWIW, I currently don't have any BCS teams and want to see things improved.

5) I dont think FT shooting should improve more than a maximum of a full letter grade. Its unrealistic to think an F FT shooter can suddently become a C+, its just not how FT shooting works.

Yes, sometimes it does. Not all the time, and not like before (when anyone could become an A/A+ ft shooter), but some guys do make big leaps in ft shooting.

6) Prestige - I dont agree with most of whats there on this subject. IMO (as Ive stated in various threads) Prestige needs to be broken into two. Baseline prestige used for hirings (this goes to supply and demand). Current prestige used for everything else. Baseline should never under and circumstances change.

Interesting, and don't necessarily disagree. I think leaning more heavily on baseline prestige for hirings (maybe 75% baseline and 25% current, or something like that) would be a great change, actually. (I'm going to add it to the thread ... thanks for participating!) The bigger issue though is how current prestige is determined.

7) I agree with everything he has there regarding recruiting and in game strategy.

Quoted for posterity.

In general I'm not saying Im right or that all those suggestions are nec. bad. Im just saying that Im sure its not even close to a consensous and I hope WIS doesnt make changes based on the forums as it seems they did with potantial. At that time if you remember, you had about 10 coaches screaming at the top of their lungs for potential, WIS changes it and you remember the results. I didnt wanna really debate his points

Whoops, sorry. Lol.

as theyve been done at length in other threads. But just wanted to put it out there that he doesnt speak on behalf of the community. There are plenty of coaches that never comment in the forums and a ton of others that rarely visit them.

I agree they are not a consensus of all WIS coaches. That's virtually impossible, and really just stating the obvious. Again, they're meant to reflect the sentiments of a cross section of HD coaches that is very active and knows and cares about the game. And I definitely think there's significant value in that.

EDIT: And mmt, I definitely appreciate your thoughts on various issues ... in no way am I trying to represent that anything brought up is universally endorsed by everyone, and it's always helpful to have countering viewpoints on an issue.
2/17/2010 10:02 AM
Re: EE's

mmt and I were just recently talking about them here were my thoughts:

I agree EE's are good for the game but they aren't good for the game the way they work now. I stick by the 'if it doesn't work , we'd be better off without it' and I think that for EEs as well, although, seriously, they can't be that hard to fix. I have done my fair share of computer programing in the past and tweaking them shouldn't be too hard - ik seble has a ton on his plate tho atm as well and will settle for the "We'll look at those laster" message I got.

I don't agree with School prestige being used at all. And I go to real life here - just because a player plays at Duke doesn't mean he is more likely to be an nba star outside of his ratings then if he plays at VCU. The same thing can be said for anyone.

I think conference prestige would be much better suited to be used instead of individual school prestige - now yes it would need to be tested to make sure it worked well - but i am all for a 15-13 Iowa State team losing a 950 rated sophomore. serously if you can't win with the kid and he decides to walk... well thats your fault as a coach - does it hurt? yeah for sure but that makes sense, the ISU team would get a decent prestige bump that many schools in those situations don't get because they aren't 'good enough' schools to 'get players drafted' which in my opinion is nonsense.

I think that conference prestige could be used as an "exposure" factor. So the better conference a player plays in the more games scouts would see him at or on tv.
2/17/2010 10:02 AM
Quote: Originally posted by dalter on 2/17/2010But what I am doing is getting opinions from the cross section of users who know HD the best and care about it the most

There's already a forum for that.
2/17/2010 10:06 AM
There absolutely is, anton. But what I'm doing is sorting out the clutter (and there's a lot of clutter), centralizing ideas in one place, and asking people to really think about and share ways to improve the game.

Thanks for your input!
2/17/2010 10:24 AM
I wonder whether it would make sense to post the collected ideas and then open up for discussion?

I think the sorting, formatting and expressing the ideas in concise form adds value - but maybe then a discussion

one discussion - or maybe better a set of threads, each on a topic - recruiting, game play, etc etc = so folks can talk about the ideas and IF Seble wants to see that texture it would be available..
2/17/2010 10:37 AM
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