"Rebirth" of press at D3 - Hoops Dynasty

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Anyone else noticing that the press has been much stronger at D3 recently?

I think this has to do with a few things:

(1) Seble has re-tweaked stamina back to where it doesn't require super crazy stamina to run press successfully;

(2) Lack of true D3 PGs, so there is really no way to get multiple 80/80 pass/bh guys running point (obviously a couple of teams probably have that across all worlds, but not enough to thwart the press); and

(3) Rebounding still hasn't really been fixed, so teams running the press aren't really punished the way they probably should be. One of the ways to beat the press is to have a great rebounding team (most press teams aren't also going to be great rebounding teams anyway) and crash the offensive glass, but because rebounding still seems to be off, press teams with mediocre rebounding aren't really at a disadvantage the way they should be.

This is all gut feel, so I don't know if any of it is true, but I am something like 90-2 against non-press teams in Wooden D3 over the past few years, and under .500 against press teams. My team now has 70+spd/80+/80+ spd/bh/pass guys playing both PG and SG. I have a pretty solid rebounding team with good overall team speed. I just can't beat the press. Admittedly, some of those press teams are just better than mine, but most aren't.

Thoughts from guys at D3? Preferably ones without a bias favoring press?

1/10/2011 10:34 AM

ike1024

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Here's the team, for what it's worth.

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=3795

If you don't agree with my above sentiments, then is there anything you would suggest to make me more effective against the press? Clearly, I'm young right now, but this goes back to a few seasons ago. My record vs. press teams who aren't as good as me is staggeringly underwhelming.

1/10/2011 10:37 AM

udm_mike

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I've noticed that it's almost all about IQ's. If you have a team with good iq's (as long as speed/ath and stamina aren't brutal), then you're going to be fine. If you don't, you'll be horrendous.

1/10/2011 10:45 AM

ike1024

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Posted by udm_mike on 1/10/2011 10:45:00 AM (view original):
I've noticed that it's almost all about IQ's. If you have a team with good iq's (as long as speed/ath and stamina aren't brutal), then you're going to be fine. If you don't, you'll be horrendous.

Are you saying that press teams with high IQs will be fine, or teams playing against press teams will be fine?

1/10/2011 10:48 AM

tianyi7886

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Posted by ike1024 on 1/10/2011 10:48:00 AM (view original):
Posted by udm_mike on 1/10/2011 10:45:00 AM (view original):
I've noticed that it's almost all about IQ's. If you have a team with good iq's (as long as speed/ath and stamina aren't brutal), then you're going to be fine. If you don't, you'll be horrendous.
Are you saying that press teams with high IQs will be fine, or teams playing against press teams will be fine?

Press teams load up on ath/spd, and your team is subpar in those department.

1/10/2011 10:55 AM

isack24

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OK, I would really appreciate you reading the whole post if you're going to comment, or, if you did, commenting on the actual point of it.

I understand how the game works with press teams and ath/spd, that wasn't the point.

I already said this specific team is young. In past years, I have had more speed. And, I typically have better rebounding. So, is the slight guard ath/big spd advantage more important that me typically having better reb/def/sb/lp/per/bh/pass than a press team? If so, I think you just proved my point that the press is too strong.

1/10/2011 11:09 AM

bdixon

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For 3 or 4 seasons I had a 2-headed SF...one PF & 1 G that I started based on what kind of team I played. I consistently beat FCP teams by running 3 good to decent BH/P out.
Is the press too strong? IMHO no, but it does take a little more work to beat it...Again, just MHO...

1/10/2011 11:20 AM

tianyi7886

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Posted by isack24 on 1/10/2011 11:09:00 AM (view original):
OK, I would really appreciate you reading the whole post if you're going to comment, or, if you did, commenting on the actual point of it.

I understand how the game works with press teams and ath/spd, that wasn't the point.

I already said this specific team is young. In past years, I have had more speed. And, I typically have better rebounding. So, is the slight guard ath/big spd advantage more important that me typically having better reb/def/sb/lp/per/bh/pass than a press team? If so, I think you just proved my point that the press is too strong.

My point was the ath/spd advantage wasn't slight. The advantage was huge. Marantha Baptist is at 51/49 ath/spd team avg, you are at 40/45. Thats a 20% ath advantage, 10% spd advantage. His team reb average is also higher than yours. Sure you can make the case that you had better rebounding bigs, but if you look at his rebounding bigs, they are at 74 and 75 rebound while yours are at the high 80s range. If you apply the average of the ath/spd advantage (average of 10 and 20, so 15%) your bigs barely cover the Reb spread. And since we all know that ath matters in rebounding, he actually has better rebounders than you do as well.

You might think you have the better rebounding/defensive team, but you really don't since ath/spd matters in defense and rebound. Not to mention ath/spd also drives rebounding efficiency.

My first point was to simply point out that press teams go for ath/spd as top priority, so if they have a huge advantage in those departments, they mostly likely will win since everything in this game, from offense to defense to rebounding, have ath/spd as part of the calculation.

1/10/2011 11:22 AM

tianyi7886

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And I don't think the press is too strong. Press has inherently higher variability, so you are more prone to upsets. Something like your main scoring option fouling out, teams running tired down the stretch, or simply not generating enough T/Os can cause you to lose to much lesser teams. Case in point:

http://whatifsports.com/hd/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx?gid=6533845

1/10/2011 11:25 AM

tianyi7886

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One last post. Looking closer at the game play by play, clearly your team got blown out due to fatigue issues. He's a fast break press team, which speeds up the game tempo and creates more possessions, leading to more fatigue on both sides. Half of your guys are playing as very tired 10min into every half, with your C starting the 2nd half as "fairly fresh" as opposed to fresh.

So to 1) stamina still matters to a press, but that doesn't mean you can disregard stamina with other defenses. I actually think that stamina matters to all defenses so a 90 stamina team vs a 70 one, the 90 will win even with somewhat worse talent.

And for 3) I don't think you had the rebounding edge in that matchup.

1/10/2011 11:30 AM

isack24

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Posted by tianyi7886 on 1/10/2011 11:22:00 AM (view original):
Posted by isack24 on 1/10/2011 11:09:00 AM (view original):
OK, I would really appreciate you reading the whole post if you're going to comment, or, if you did, commenting on the actual point of it.

I understand how the game works with press teams and ath/spd, that wasn't the point.

I already said this specific team is young. In past years, I have had more speed. And, I typically have better rebounding. So, is the slight guard ath/big spd advantage more important that me typically having better reb/def/sb/lp/per/bh/pass than a press team? If so, I think you just proved my point that the press is too strong.
My point was the ath/spd advantage wasn't slight. The advantage was huge. Marantha Baptist is at 51/49 ath/spd team avg, you are at 40/45. Thats a 20% ath advantage, 10% spd advantage. His team reb average is also higher than yours. Sure you can make the case that you had better rebounding bigs, but if you look at his rebounding bigs, they are at 74 and 75 rebound while yours are at the high 80s range. If you apply the average of the ath/spd advantage (average of 10 and 20, so 15%) your bigs barely cover the Reb spread. And since we all know that ath matters in rebounding, he actually has better rebounders than you do as well.

You might think you have the better rebounding/defensive team, but you really don't since ath/spd matters in defense and rebound. Not to mention ath/spd also drives rebounding efficiency.

My first point was to simply point out that press teams go for ath/spd as top priority, so if they have a huge advantage in those departments, they mostly likely will win since everything in this game, from offense to defense to rebounding, have ath/spd as part of the calculation.

This where the read my post thing matters, which you clearly aren't doing.

I don't think I am better than MBBC. Not even close. That was never the point.

This goes back over multiple seasons, and this is not even close to my best team over that time.

Let's get rid of the notion that I don't know what ratings mean, or that I can't tell which team is better when I see them on paper. I understand what effect ath has on rebounding (I don't think speed has any, or so said seble once upon a time). I understand these things.

This has nothing to do with last night's game. I should have lost, and I should have lost bad. Again, nothing to do with that.

I want nothing less than to turn this thread into a "why didn't I win" thread. I know why: he has a better team. I want to talk about the press in D3 in general.

1/10/2011 11:32 AM

bhansalid00

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isack, i'd be curious what your defensive stats looked like the last few years, if you happen to remember them. Opp fg%, fouls, opp turnovers - any ballparks on those. Because obviously you were more experienced the last couple of years than you are now (5 fresh, only 2 seniors), and looking at this year's team, I'd expect you to struggle on defense - your guards have low ath and your entire team has low stamina. To be honest, with three non-freshman having 64 or lower stamina (plus the freshman), you should be getting hammered by good teams this year, but we'll see. If you can hang with them, you might have a point that the press is still too easy to stay competitive with.

1/10/2011 11:33 AM

isack24

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Posted by bdixon on 1/10/2011 11:20:00 AM (view original):
For 3 or 4 seasons I had a 2-headed SF...one PF & 1 G that I started based on what kind of team I played. I consistently beat FCP teams by running 3 good to decent BH/P out.
Is the press too strong? IMHO no, but it does take a little more work to beat it...Again, just MHO...

Yeah, I was thinking about that. I used to have no problem beating it with three really good guards. I just can't find find three 85/85 bh/pass guards like I used to.

1/10/2011 11:34 AM

tianyi7886

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Posted by bhansalid00 on 1/10/2011 11:33:00 AM (view original):
isack, i'd be curious what your defensive stats looked like the last few years, if you happen to remember them. Opp fg%, fouls, opp turnovers - any ballparks on those. Because obviously you were more experienced the last couple of years than you are now (5 fresh, only 2 seniors), and looking at this year's team, I'd expect you to struggle on defense - your guards have low ath and your entire team has low stamina. To be honest, with three non-freshman having 64 or lower stamina (plus the freshman), you should be getting hammered by good teams this year, but we'll see. If you can hang with them, you might have a point that the press is still too easy to stay competitive with.

He's not running the press though. If he's running the press with that team and winning/staying close, then yes, he's proving the press is too easy.

1/10/2011 11:35 AM

isack24

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Posted by bhansalid00 on 1/10/2011 11:33:00 AM (view original):
isack, i'd be curious what your defensive stats looked like the last few years, if you happen to remember them. Opp fg%, fouls, opp turnovers - any ballparks on those. Because obviously you were more experienced the last couple of years than you are now (5 fresh, only 2 seniors), and looking at this year's team, I'd expect you to struggle on defense - your guards have low ath and your entire team has low stamina. To be honest, with three non-freshman having 64 or lower stamina (plus the freshman), you should be getting hammered by good teams this year, but we'll see. If you can hang with them, you might have a point that the press is still too easy to stay competitive with.

Right, like I said, this isn't about this specific team. It's unfortunate that some people asusme I'm simply ******** because I lost last night and the real point gets lost in that. MBBC is a better team, I should have lost. This thread has been a long time coming for me.

I don't know the numbers from two and three years ago, and last year's numbers are pointless because the conference went from a top-five conference to terrible because of flight/rebuilding, so I played a lot of bad teams which skewed the numbers.

1/10/2011 11:39 AM

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