1) jakotay - Moses Malone, Kevin Johnson, Wes Unseld, Mike Miller, Nick Anderson, Earl Watson, Ken Bannister

 2) sappy - Wilt, Tracy McGrady, Bill Walton, Antawn Jamison, Mark Price, Andres Nocioni, Larry Drew

 3) jethroeg - Kareem, Nate Archibald, Reggie Lewis, Dan Roundfield, Rodney McCray, Bob Gross, Rick Mahorn

 4) ljemd - Rodman, Camby, Reggie Miller, Derek Harper, John Havlicek, Emeka Okafor, Mike Gminski

 5) banditone - Artis Gilmore, Gary Payton, Clyde Drexler, Josh Smith, Rick Barry, Connie Hawkins, Mike Gale

  6) tricky24 - Dwight Howard, Robert Parish, Cedric Maxwell, Dana Barros, Jeff Hornacek, Jamaal Magloire, Jim Paxson

  7) ncih - Shaq, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Carlos Boozer, Bill Bridges, Greg Anthony, Theo Ratliff

  8) dh555 - LeBron James, Jerry Lucas, Horace Grant, Pau Gasol, Terrel Brandon, Jim Les, Larry Smith

  9) badja - Barkley, Shawn Kemp, Mookie Blaylock, Jerry West, Clifford Ray, Delonte West, Ervin Johnson

 10) appleseed1 - Jordan, Donyell Marshall, Larry Nance, Chris Anderson, Ed Pinckney, Jose Calderon

 11) mikee1 - Larry Bird, Paul Pierce, Tyson Chandler, Penny Hardaway, Willis Reed, Michael Cage, Wally Szerbiak

 12) scudmissle - David Robinson, Shawn Marion, Swen Nater, Porter, Damon Jones, Gene Moore, Trevor Ruffin

  13) robocoach - CP3, Kevin Love, Alonzo Mourning, Peja, Bo Outlaw,  Daniel Gibson, Arvydas Sabonis

  14) bluenote75 - Magic Johnson, Dirk Nowitzki, Boerwinkle, Paul Millsap, Wes Person, Charlie Edge, Rich Kelley

  15) sixersnuggets - Mutombo, Chauncey Billups, Jayson Williams, Alex English, DeJuan Blair, TR Dunn, Jon Barry

  16) dh555 - Garnett, Julius Erving, Buck Williams, Deron Williams, Kris Humphries, Dell Curry, Corie Blount

  17) theyard2 - Russell, Duncan, Gerald Wallace, Adrian Dantley, Mo Cheeks, Rodrigue Beaubois, Corliss Williamson

  18) ashamael - Karl Malone, Pippen, Brent Barry, Sam Dalembert, Lamar Odom, Gadzuric, Chris Webber

  19) eleibowitz - Ben Wallace, Kevin Durant, Bob McAdoo, Andrei Kirilenko, Mark Jackson, Chris Dudley, JR Smith

  20) 98average - Dwayne Wade, Bobby Jones, Walt Bellamy, Dave Cowens, Dennis Scott, Gar Heard, Sergio Rodriguez

  21) malone9975 - Kobe, Kevin McHale, Troy Murphy, Walt Frazier, DeAndre Jordan, Mark Landsberger, Kenny Smith

  22) tarheel1991 - Kidd, Elton Brand, Manu Ginobili, Oakley, Przbilla, Vince Carter, Joakim Noah

  23) captainzen - Mel Daniels, Stockton, Amare, Danny Granger, Ken Sears, McCoy McLemore, Lionel Hollins

  24) jcred5 - Oscar Robertson, Hakeem, Marques Johnson, Fat Lever, Clyde Lee, Olden Polynice, Jim Jackson

So far...

Moses is still a legit top 5... not sure he's still worth a #1, as there are 4 guys I'd take over him without hesitation, yet he still gives you a lot of great stuff.  He's a solid #2 option scoring wise with tier 3 usage & 54% efg% (as well as gets to the line), plays a ton of minutes, and is unequaled on the boards by anybody not named dennis rodman.  I know coley's built teams around all of the other guys who I think should go ahead of him, so sometimes you just want to try something else.

66-67 Wilt is arguably the best overall player in the sim right now, and several other versions are amazing, too.  Can't argue picking him as long as Worm ain't on the board... which he was... but yeah.

imo too high for Kareem.  He belongs in the 6-10 category and is outperformed in almost every important area by someone not yet drafted (edit: he's drafted now, and it's Shaq).  He's still a good pick and solid building block for a team.

Worm is a steal.  He just gives you so many options later in the draft and so much board dominance from the moment you select him.  He should be #1 pick every time, IMO.

imo too high for Gilmore.  His best season is a 4th tier usage one, though he has several 3rd tier ones that are good.  Still, there are 4 or 5 guys that do what he does only better available at this point.

Dwight at 6 is very nice... almost a steal.  He's top 5 imo... Worm, Wilt & 2 guys that haven't been drafted (seriously?!) are the only ones I'd definitely consider ahead of him as the foundation of my team.  I'd definitely take him over 3 of the guys drafted ahead of him.

Shaq - Tier 2 huge efg%, fta monster who has an extremely low tov% to go with his decent rebounding.  Don't know why Kareem gets pretty consistently picked ahead of him - I guess people get scared off by his FT% when they should be more scared of Kareem's lack of trips to the line.

Still - you can't go wrong getting high efg% paint scoring + boards early in the first round.

im thrilled to get lebron at 8.....i guess everyone felt its easier to build around the big men

Yeah that's just plain thievery at 8.

Barkley over ______???
Well...60% shooting, 33% creb, 951 fta, nice usage....plus he's the current defending champ.  I know the D isn't there, but everything else makes up for it I think.  Plus I hate building around guards.

I don't necessarily follow the logic on the big men. In RL or the Sim, it is very hard to win without the right fit at PG. And I think there are only about half a dozen super elite point guards in NBA history.


Having said that, I do understand the reasoning behind KAJ and Gilmore. They have been moving up the draft ever since I have been in the ODL, and I am not going to criticise that. Especially since I thought I could get Jabbar at 13.

Posted by robocoach on 11/17/2011 8:13:00 AM (view original):
I don't necessarily follow the logic on the big men. In RL or the Sim, it is very hard to win without the right fit at PG. And I think there are only about half a dozen super elite point guards in NBA history.


Having said that, I do understand the reasoning behind KAJ and Gilmore. They have been moving up the draft ever since I have been in the ODL, and I am not going to criticise that. Especially since I thought I could get Jabbar at 13.

So, you don't like drafting big men, but then you do like drafting them and you were going to draft Kareem?  Not sure I follow. 

The last ODL Finals:  Shaq vs.Barkley.

Shouda been Shaq vs. Robertson, but I am not bitter.....

Posted by badja on 11/17/2011 8:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by robocoach on 11/17/2011 8:13:00 AM (view original):
I don't necessarily follow the logic on the big men. In RL or the Sim, it is very hard to win without the right fit at PG. And I think there are only about half a dozen super elite point guards in NBA history.


Having said that, I do understand the reasoning behind KAJ and Gilmore. They have been moving up the draft ever since I have been in the ODL, and I am not going to criticise that. Especially since I thought I could get Jabbar at 13.

So, you don't like drafting big men, but then you do like drafting them and you were going to draft Kareem?  Not sure I follow. 

The last ODL Finals:  Shaq vs.Barkley.

Clearly I think you can build a good team around Barkley, but , as for my team in that final, in my estimation, there was not one player on the team that was not vital to the team.

I don't like to build around guards either, but, in some drafts there comes a time when you have to build around a guard whether you want to or not.  In this draft, that time was the 10th pick.  ( I would have gone with Barkley again at #9, and I was hoping you would take Jordan)

I like building teams around guards...... no accounting for tastes.

1              Moses Malone  B

I like Moses.  I like him almost as much as Wilt, and I like the fact that he has a bit of defensive flexibility and I might even, in the right mood pick him over Wilt but…

2              Wilt Chamberlain             B+

… you really have to love everything that Wilt can give you, and he can give you flexibility in different ways than in positioning.  Still, he was in no way the best player available, so no A

3              Kareem Abdul-Jabbar    B

I have been down on Kareem in the past calling him over-priced for what you get.  I am no longer so sure about that, but he is not the best Center available and far from the best player available.

4              Dennis Rodman                               A+          

Man, I wish I had been up 4^th.  You were and you didn’t blow it.  You could have said “Doug Overton” and you didn’t.  Congratulation.

5              Artis Gilmore     D

I really can’t make this pick in any way work in my head.  I would love to have Artis on my ABA/NBA progressive league team, but there are a number of players who give you what Artis give you and more with less turnovers.

6              Dwight Howard C

Like this guy, but I think there are guys who give you quality minutes in a greater quantity.

7              Shaquille O'Neal               C+

Like this guy, but I still don’t think he is the 3^rd best Center available.

8              LeBron James    A+

I don’t like to build around guards, but if you are going to build around a guard, here’s the one.  He plays excellent defense at 4 positions, gives you good eFG% considering his monster usage, and, with his, Tier I (or is it Tier V) usage, guarantees that you will not suffer a usage penalty.  Don’t forget Rebounding and Assists, ‘cause LeBron doesn’t. 

9              Charles Barkley A+

Charles Barkley is the best offensive player in the history of the NBA.  Don’t forget to hide his defense.

10           Michael Jordan F- - Nobody has won in the ODL with this clown in how many years?  (really, how many years?  I have no idea.  Is this really a true statement?)  Alright, same thing I said about LeBron, only a little less so. (Statistically)  (During the Regular Season)  (When it doesn’t count) and Jordan only gives you 2 to 2.5 positions.

11           Larry Bird             A-  In the Bowis Draft league qistat picked Bird with the #1 overall pick and came 2^nd in the league in wins.  That, and the fact that I bleed green…  This is a good pick

12           David Robinson A  Of the centers picked before Robinson 3-7, nobody gets to the line like him (and does OK shooting once there), nobody gets as few TOs as him and nobody plays defense like him.  Try this stat on for size, if you think it might be important Pts/(FGA+.44*FTA+TO) and see where Robinson comes up.

13           Chris Paul            A+  Sometimes it’s just nice to not have to worry about assists any more.  Actually it is also nice to not have to think real hard about usage as well.  Paul is definitely a steal at 13.

15           Dikembe Mutombo        D  This one is a puzzler.  Mutombo is not even close to the best defensive center available, and further from the best center around and further still from the best player around.

16           Kevin Garnett    B+  I like Garnett’s numbers quite a bit; he really fills the stat sheet and, if necessary, he can do it from the SF position for you.  Definitely a player I hope is around late first round.

17           Bill Russell           D  Greatest champion in the history of all professional team sports?  Sure.  Greatest statistics for use in a stats based game?  Not so much.  See comments on Mutombo.  The only place Garnett belong together like this is in a heartwarming conversation/interview sometime during the 2007-08 season.

1)  Your grades make no sense.  You give Jordan an F-- & Lebron an A+ and they give many of the same things.  Both are absolute steals where they fell.  Howard a C?  Really?  The guy is easily top 5... see point #3.  Honestly, nobody picked in the top 10 deserves less than an A (with the exception of Gilmore - he's a solid B) because they are all guys you can easily build a contending team around.

edit:  oh haha I didn't see that you were the one that took Jordan.  Now I understand your grade!

2)  Honestly, there is no positional influence when building teams correctly, though positional flexibility is ALWAYS nice (someone who can play pf/c or pg/sg, for example).  I've won championships drafting around guards and big men both.  It's about getting what you can get the  most out of no matter what position you pick or what slot you pick in.  That's why Howard & Moses should be taken ahead of guys like Shaq & Kareem.

3)  I'd be willing to say that Barkley has more rings in this league over the last 10 seasons than anybody else... followed by Howard.  I know they each have 2, and those were just my teams.

Posted by robocoach on 11/17/2011 9:33:00 AM (view original):
Shouda been Shaq vs. Robertson, but I am not bitter.....

Don't you mean Shaq vs. Jamison

don't mention players not drafted yet

Posted by ashamael on 11/18/2011 12:11:00 AM (view original):
don't mention players not drafted yet

I don't know if it is a rule, maybe it should be, but people probably shouldn't mention specific years of players who are drafted as well?