Its really a shame seeing what the forums have become. On any given subject I barely recognize any of the posters and it seems most vets (obviously there are the exceptions); have taken my approach and only poke their heads in on occassion. Im wondering what it would take to get the forums more active again or if its just the way things are now.  Any of the old timers care to share why they dont check in anymore? 

I can say for me that its not a matter of the game going stale. I still check my teams as often as I used to and am probably more active within my own CCs than Ive ever been. I just dont feel the forums are productive. There are far to many people giving misinformation or providing opinion as though it was fact. I also cant stand how insulting people become when a position contrary to their own is presented (not saying Ive been perfect in that realm myself). It used to be that 10 new topics appeared daily...now...they barely get updated.
12/27/2011 9:23 AM
I've seen this in every game I play. I'm not a vet, but even when I started things were better. HD and HBD are worse than GD. They all are or have been bad (GD is making a comeback) but I've seen that its just come down to ******* matches in many threads on every forum. It's. OT debate, it is trying to humiliate another coach and prove that they are the dumbest users here. I am very active, but unfortunately it is extremely hard to keep threads on topic.

I'll be honest: I love the forums in theory, but right now they are of very little use unless you are an angry, bitter old man.

12/27/2011 10:06 AM
The Forums were really hot several years ago. I'd have to read them 3 time a day just to keep up.  Many coaches shared personal intimate details of their lives. It was a predecessor to Facebook and I think the social networks have affected the forums immeasurably
12/27/2011 10:09 AM
These forums are a gazillion times better than the baseball boards.   I find it refreshing.
12/27/2011 10:11 AM
They have dropeed of alot since i started I think the game became the issue
12/27/2011 1:00 PM
The HBD forum is especially toxic.  This one is actually very nice to read in comparison, but yeah, things have dropped off a bunch.  Not as much stuff to figure out, many of the same questions get repeated, etc... 
12/27/2011 1:43 PM

Somebody call-up Diablo, I bet he could get this forum rocking again real quick, haha.

12/27/2011 2:09 PM
where's tdowdy when you need him? 
12/27/2011 2:51 PM
Yeah HBD is by far the worst, but I find myself in the GD forums the most.
12/27/2011 5:15 PM
Posted by mmt0315 on 12/27/2011 9:23:00 AM (view original):
Its really a shame seeing what the forums have become. On any given subject I barely recognize any of the posters and it seems most vets (obviously there are the exceptions); have taken my approach and only poke their heads in on occassion. Im wondering what it would take to get the forums more active again or if its just the way things are now.  Any of the old timers care to share why they dont check in anymore? 

I can say for me that its not a matter of the game going stale. I still check my teams as often as I used to and am probably more active within my own CCs than Ive ever been. I just dont feel the forums are productive. There are far to many people giving misinformation or providing opinion as though it was fact. I also cant stand how insulting people become when a position contrary to their own is presented (not saying Ive been perfect in that realm myself). It used to be that 10 new topics appeared daily...now...they barely get updated.
I think your perception may be part of the problem. For any new people, or even more veteran players, reading this says "I could talk, but I'm not recognized as a vet / old timer,  so I'm not going to". Or even the premise in your opening sentence that the forums have somehow gone down in quality may cause people to think that its pointless to come here. I've not been around as long as some, but my recollection is that it was really 3-4 coaches like olddave and a couple others that would really get things going. Others would respond, but not really be ones to start up conversations. Obviously, those coaches have left.

This, combined with the fact that we haven't really had any updates for over a year, I would expect the boards to stagnate. When the new patches came in recently, there were plently of new threads started. But they didn't last long, because the majority were basically cosmetic changes. The new seeding process still generates new discussion.

The attitude of "people giving misinformation as fact" also deters people from posting. I for one wouldn't feel like posting on here just so some "vet" and "old timer" can rip on me, nitpick my entire statement, and generally talk down to me. I posted in some thread a while back about the minimum number of minutes needed to maintain a stat. Sure enough, some "vet" came in and said something to the effect of "I cant believe you are stating one number as a fact. It varies by player, work ethic, etc". Well, I think we all knew that, and any coach who puts 7 min into a stat will find that for 90% of players, this is fine, but some it won't. So you adjust their minutes. But thats something the coach will learn. There's nothing wrong with saying "7 min, adjust as necessary". But some "pro" had to come in talk down to the people posting. That makes it much less likely anyone is going to bother to stick their neck out and say anything the next time.
12/28/2011 10:34 AM
Posted by sublightd on 12/28/2011 10:34:00 AM (view original):
Posted by mmt0315 on 12/27/2011 9:23:00 AM (view original):
Its really a shame seeing what the forums have become. On any given subject I barely recognize any of the posters and it seems most vets (obviously there are the exceptions); have taken my approach and only poke their heads in on occassion. Im wondering what it would take to get the forums more active again or if its just the way things are now.  Any of the old timers care to share why they dont check in anymore? 

I can say for me that its not a matter of the game going stale. I still check my teams as often as I used to and am probably more active within my own CCs than Ive ever been. I just dont feel the forums are productive. There are far to many people giving misinformation or providing opinion as though it was fact. I also cant stand how insulting people become when a position contrary to their own is presented (not saying Ive been perfect in that realm myself). It used to be that 10 new topics appeared daily...now...they barely get updated.
I think your perception may be part of the problem. For any new people, or even more veteran players, reading this says "I could talk, but I'm not recognized as a vet / old timer,  so I'm not going to". Or even the premise in your opening sentence that the forums have somehow gone down in quality may cause people to think that its pointless to come here. I've not been around as long as some, but my recollection is that it was really 3-4 coaches like olddave and a couple others that would really get things going. Others would respond, but not really be ones to start up conversations. Obviously, those coaches have left.

This, combined with the fact that we haven't really had any updates for over a year, I would expect the boards to stagnate. When the new patches came in recently, there were plently of new threads started. But they didn't last long, because the majority were basically cosmetic changes. The new seeding process still generates new discussion.

The attitude of "people giving misinformation as fact" also deters people from posting. I for one wouldn't feel like posting on here just so some "vet" and "old timer" can rip on me, nitpick my entire statement, and generally talk down to me. I posted in some thread a while back about the minimum number of minutes needed to maintain a stat. Sure enough, some "vet" came in and said something to the effect of "I cant believe you are stating one number as a fact. It varies by player, work ethic, etc". Well, I think we all knew that, and any coach who puts 7 min into a stat will find that for 90% of players, this is fine, but some it won't. So you adjust their minutes. But thats something the coach will learn. There's nothing wrong with saying "7 min, adjust as necessary". But some "pro" had to come in talk down to the people posting. That makes it much less likely anyone is going to bother to stick their neck out and say anything the next time.
I semi sorta agree with this. It's true, WIS forums have become toxic, places people are deterred from because of these know-it-alls, but I still believe that misinformation IS presented as fact all to often here. It doesn't happen every time, and normally its called out. Unfortunately, that's when the biggest problem comes out.

The way people disagree is the biggest problem, not the fact that there is a disagreement. Forums are for debates, not pizzing matches, and that is what it has become. If someone doesn't agree with you, it's "****you, you know nothing *******!" Not a simple debate presenting the facts of each side. When it was a debate, people could read it and decide for themselves which side they preferred.

There is no black and white way to play this game. For every user there is a slightly different strategy and philosophy, but in order to learn the game sometimes you change that to a proven method. Unfortunately, those who are looking for that method are not looking on the forums because of the toxicity.
12/28/2011 11:17 AM
At one time I had 10 teams with 4 different usernames.  I now have just 3 teams with two usernames and as much as I love the game, I just don't have the time I used to.  I come out here every so often, like this morning, but seldom post.  Why not? 
  • Time is the main factor. I don't have time to post on the CC's every day, and my priority in posting would be in the CC first, then the Forum for the World, then here.
  • There are a lot of repeat threads.  I used to always reach out to new coaches and help, but after 6 years you start answering the same questions and giving the same advice over and over again.  I still offer help but in the World forum or to those who reach out to me directly. It points out the need for WIS to develop a better User Guide to help new coaches with the basics.
  • I have always said you can measure the quality of a thread by how quickly it get's off subject or turns into something cynical.  No matter how good the post, it doesn't take long to disintegrate.
This is more than I have posted here in 3 years!  LOL
12/28/2011 12:15 PM
I suppose the forums are in a bit of a rut, but what questions are out there that aren't being asked?  I sort of feel like we're in a position where what's known is known to most (and when not is asked in a repeat thread) and what's not known to most isn't really known to anybody because knowing the answer would mean knowing the secret sauce behind the engine.

I mean I could (and have on occasion) started threads that ask about how the sim handles double teams, matchups in zone/press defense, etc.  But nobody really knows the answers to those questions, right?  To a certain extent, I think there is too much posting in the forums because some really good questions get asked that I don't think anybody can answer.  I know I'm as guilty as anyone at spreading mis-information on the forum, although I do try to qualify things with "in my opinion/experience" when I'm not 100% sure of what I'm saying.  But a lot of times I just keep quiet.  (1) I'm probably not in the top 500 list of expert coaches, so who am I to speak?  (2) If I'm not sure, I should probably keep away regardless of my expertise.  That said, I do fully agree that some of those questions are being "answered" with what I would say are shaky, at best, answers.  It can be a bit annoying to see that.

The other thing I'll point out is that the 100% certainty of some that post around here gets to be a bit annoying as well.  I have chosen to self-censor myself at times becuase the last thing I want to do is to get into a fight on this site about something super trivial.  Especially when number of wins and championships get thrown out as if they are the ultimate decider as to who is right and wrong.  I suspect few would say that the opinion of a coach that has won championships automatically trumps that of those that have not.  But it seems like as a thread grows that is forgotten and since I lack the resumes of many of the more accomplished coaches (and those that have teams in multiple worlds), I stay quiet.

All of that said, I'm not sure there really is a problem.  To repeat what I said at the top, I do wonder if there is all that much interesting to discuss at this point.
12/28/2011 12:47 PM
Posted by kujayhawk on 12/28/2011 12:47:00 PM (view original):
I suppose the forums are in a bit of a rut, but what questions are out there that aren't being asked?  I sort of feel like we're in a position where what's known is known to most (and when not is asked in a repeat thread) and what's not known to most isn't really known to anybody because knowing the answer would mean knowing the secret sauce behind the engine.

I mean I could (and have on occasion) started threads that ask about how the sim handles double teams, matchups in zone/press defense, etc.  But nobody really knows the answers to those questions, right?  To a certain extent, I think there is too much posting in the forums because some really good questions get asked that I don't think anybody can answer.  I know I'm as guilty as anyone at spreading mis-information on the forum, although I do try to qualify things with "in my opinion/experience" when I'm not 100% sure of what I'm saying.  But a lot of times I just keep quiet.  (1) I'm probably not in the top 500 list of expert coaches, so who am I to speak?  (2) If I'm not sure, I should probably keep away regardless of my expertise.  That said, I do fully agree that some of those questions are being "answered" with what I would say are shaky, at best, answers.  It can be a bit annoying to see that.

The other thing I'll point out is that the 100% certainty of some that post around here gets to be a bit annoying as well.  I have chosen to self-censor myself at times becuase the last thing I want to do is to get into a fight on this site about something super trivial.  Especially when number of wins and championships get thrown out as if they are the ultimate decider as to who is right and wrong.  I suspect few would say that the opinion of a coach that has won championships automatically trumps that of those that have not.  But it seems like as a thread grows that is forgotten and since I lack the resumes of many of the more accomplished coaches (and those that have teams in multiple worlds), I stay quiet.

All of that said, I'm not sure there really is a problem.  To repeat what I said at the top, I do wonder if there is all that much interesting to discuss at this point.
1. I actually found the secret sauce, the weird thing about doing so was that the experience was eerily similar to the plot of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade - which even included rescuing my father from a Bavarian castle guarded by nazis and choosing the correct secret sauce amongst many impostor sauces, luckily I "chose wisely".

2. I'm pretty by now that the internet was invented to satisfy the human need for super trivial arguments. However, calling someones bull**** about things they don't and/or couldn't know doesn't necessarily mean it has to be toxic, it can actually be very productive.

3. You don't have to be a Hall of Famer or have won multiple championships in order to know what you're talking about. Besides, most veteran coaches can tell who is making a better case for their argument and know that whoever plays the "I have won a national championship" card is typically losing the debate.
12/28/2011 3:02 PM
Posted by nachopuzzle on 12/27/2011 2:09:00 PM (view original):

Somebody call-up Diablo, I bet he could get this forum rocking again real quick, haha.

how dare you speak that name!
12/28/2011 3:06 PM
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