Another real issue that is complex and not an easy fix.

I hear the left yammering about how US companies ship jobs to China (or wherever else) and pay slave labor rates, and profit off the backs of the poor Chinese (or whatever other country).

The reality is even though the US dollar has been weakened over the last 12 years 1 US dollars is equal to 6.25 Chinese Yuan. So if you are paying these people 2 US dollars an hour (slave labor rates) it is the US equivalent of 12.50/hr (hardly a slave labor rate). And we can't forget that most manufacturing jobs, especially union run ones are going to probably pay quite a bit more than 12.50.

So if a company can spend 2 dollars as opposed to 12.5 (or more), it's not hard to see why that is a pretty solid business move.

There's definitely something to be said for striking a balance, because if your cheap labor is producing your product yet your target market can't afford to buy it because so many are now out of work, that is a problem.

Perhaps we could penalize US companies who ship jobs overseas, but it'd take a pretty hefty penalty to offset the gains of the cheap labor.

The good news here:

Chinese Labor costs 30% more than it did in 2005 just based on the USD/Yuan conversion. Add in the fact that Chinese labor demand has increased worker wages over that time frame and the high cost of shipping products due to rising oil prices.... and outsourcing jobs to china is not as attractive as it once was 7 years ago.

The bad news here:

The US hasn't done much to incentivise other countries to invest in our labor. At some point the idiots in Washington have to realize there is no such thing as 'made in america' anymore. Even Harley Davidson has parts made over seas. Its a world labor force today and if we are to make higher wages we have to provide value for others to pay that much. High tax rates only hurt here.

It's not just outsourcing jobs offshore.  The number of domestic jobs that are being filled by revolving doors of foreign workers in the U.S. on H-1B visas should also be addressed as well.

Posted by tecwrg on 10/18/2012 8:28:00 AM (view original):
It's not just outsourcing jobs offshore.  The number of domestic jobs that are being filled by revolving doors of foreign workers in the U.S. on H-1B visas should also be addressed as well.

That's another great point and the discussion also should include illegal immigrants in the equation.

One of the main reasons I'm leaning towards Romney is the fact that Obama has done nothing regarding illegals here taking jobs from citizens when we can least afford it. When every legal citizen is employed then you can maybe consider giving drivers licenses to illegals and the rest of his coddling.

Not trying to be cold-hearted about it because I understand most are only here trying to better their lives, but let's be honest, we need to get American's lives better before we start being OK with coddling illegal immigrants.

The reason illegals are hired is because they'll work cheaper.   I'm not saying it's a good business practice(even though it increases profits) but it's a fact.   If one can hire someone for $8 an hour, under the table, or someone for $10 an hour, while paying insurance, taxes, etc, and both are capable of picking apples, it's reasonably obvious which worker a business will likely hire.    If you want it to stop, you have to crush businesses that do this.  Not sure that's good for the economy either. 

Right!

It is a delicate issue.

But at this point of our economy I think we have to favor citizens over illegals and let the apples fall where they may. Maybe apple growing isn't profitable enough anymore, so our apples will have to be imported.

In the long run I think the right move is to get Americans working and crack down on those that hire illegals, as well as the illegals themselves.

The other option would be to convince unemployed people that picking apples is an $8 an hour job and, if they want to work, that's what they will be paid.   That said, it's a very complicated issue because it's almost impossible to live on $320 a week(less taxes) and, if they're collecting unemployment, they're making almost the same for doing nothing. 

Or the apple growers can start charging $5 an apple and pay more.  But a lot of people would stop eating apples.

I think many WOULD take that $8/hr job.

If you are drawing unemployment you shouldn't be able to refuse work.

Although I'd bet that the openings would be quickly filled by people who have self respect and would rather earn a living over living off the govt. dole.

At least in this current economy where so many one time productive members have been reduced to having to draw unemployment to survive.

That's also complicated.   If I'm accustomed to making 40k per year, I'd want something in that ballpark.   If I say "Screw it, I want to work", I take myself off the market because I'm picking apples from 8-5 every day.    If I'm getting $220 in unemployment, the "right" business decision is to keep taking the govt dole in order to seek employment I want.   It's not like I'm going to move up with the apple company.

FWIW, I've been there.  I took a low paying job because I did want to work.   However, I made it clear to the employer that I was seeking employment that better suited me.  They understood and worked around any interviews I had.    I'm not sure that is going to happen very often.  

It's tough though. Studies have shown that a person taking a low paying job picking apples/working at McDonalds/cleaning toilets when they had a job paying $40k or $50k or whatever a year not only sets that person back while they are working the low paying job, it sets them back forever. They never recover the earning power they had before the layoff. Their skills erode somewhat and the perception of their skills erode almost completely. New employers don't see them as the person that made $60k a year as a marketing manager, they see them as a cashier. Their career prospects don't take as much of a hit staying unemployed.

Also, there are only so many low skill jobs. If we fill them with people capable of much higher skill work, not only do we lose out on the contributions from the higher skill employees, we don't have enough jobs for low skill workers.

When I was in high school I worked at McDonalds in a nice part of the city. Almost everybody else that worked there commuted from the very poor parts of the city, 20 or 30 minutes away by car (an hour or two by bus). There were plenty of McDonalds restaurants near their homes, but there were rarely job openings in those stores because there was a huge supply of unskilled labor nearby. 

Posted by tecwrg on 10/18/2012 8:28:00 AM (view original):
It's not just outsourcing jobs offshore.  The number of domestic jobs that are being filled by revolving doors of foreign workers in the U.S. on H-1B visas should also be addressed as well.

You bet.... this is the 'new' outsourcing wave.

I can't even tell you how many companies I work with that bring over India's best and brightest on work visas. They work those guys to the bone too. Jmo.

Posted by mchalesarmy on 10/18/2012 9:37:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 10/18/2012 8:28:00 AM (view original):
It's not just outsourcing jobs offshore.  The number of domestic jobs that are being filled by revolving doors of foreign workers in the U.S. on H-1B visas should also be addressed as well.

That's another great point and the discussion also should include illegal immigrants in the equation.

One of the main reasons I'm leaning towards Romney is the fact that Obama has done nothing regarding illegals here taking jobs from citizens when we can least afford it. When every legal citizen is employed then you can maybe consider giving drivers licenses to illegals and the rest of his coddling.

Not trying to be cold-hearted about it because I understand most are only here trying to better their lives, but let's be honest, we need to get American's lives better before we start being OK with coddling illegal immigrants.

I liked how Romney doesn't want to incent illegals to come to the USA by allowing those that make it here illegally to become citizens.. He stood firm on that principle... no pandering to the center even though his answer was not the easy answer to give. That was good to see in the debate.

Posted by bad_luck on 10/18/2012 11:06:00 AM (view original):
It's tough though. Studies have shown that a person taking a low paying job picking apples/working at McDonalds/cleaning toilets when they had a job paying $40k or $50k or whatever a year not only sets that person back while they are working the low paying job, it sets them back forever. They never recover the earning power they had before the layoff. Their skills erode somewhat and the perception of their skills erode almost completely. New employers don't see them as the person that made $60k a year as a marketing manager, they see them as a cashier. Their career prospects don't take as much of a hit staying unemployed.

Also, there are only so many low skill jobs. If we fill them with people capable of much higher skill work, not only do we lose out on the contributions from the higher skill employees, we don't have enough jobs for low skill workers.

When I was in high school I worked at McDonalds in a nice part of the city. Almost everybody else that worked there commuted from the very poor parts of the city, 20 or 30 minutes away by car (an hour or two by bus). There were plenty of McDonalds restaurants near their homes, but there were rarely job openings in those stores because there was a huge supply of unskilled labor nearby. 

That is true in my experience.  I was out of work for 4.5 months(in part because I refused to take a step back).   I finally took a job in a plastics company for little more than minimum wage.   After 6 weeks, they made me a supervisor(still far from what I was making).   I found a more suitable job about 3 months later.  It's was still well below my previous pay.   About a year later, I moved back into middle management and was back(slightly above) where I was.    So it took me about 20 months(15.5 working) to get back to the same level.    Not sure if that was in part because I took the floor job making plastic items or if I was just overpaid when I was laid off.    Either way, I lost a couple of years.   It wasn't forever, I think it's possible to work your way back up, but it was a substantial amount of time. 

I also had a potential employer tell me pointblank that you're not as worth as much when you're not working(this could be in the other thread as I turned down that job).

Posted by mchalesarmy on 10/18/2012 6:37:00 AM (view original):
Another real issue that is complex and not an easy fix.

I hear the left yammering about how US companies ship jobs to China (or wherever else) and pay slave labor rates, and profit off the backs of the poor Chinese (or whatever other country).

The reality is even though the US dollar has been weakened over the last 12 years 1 US dollars is equal to 6.25 Chinese Yuan. So if you are paying these people 2 US dollars an hour (slave labor rates) it is the US equivalent of 12.50/hr (hardly a slave labor rate). And we can't forget that most manufacturing jobs, especially union run ones are going to probably pay quite a bit more than 12.50.

So if a company can spend 2 dollars as opposed to 12.5 (or more), it's not hard to see why that is a pretty solid business move.

There's definitely something to be said for striking a balance, because if your cheap labor is producing your product yet your target market can't afford to buy it because so many are now out of work, that is a problem.

Perhaps we could penalize US companies who ship jobs overseas, but it'd take a pretty hefty penalty to offset the gains of the cheap labor.

McHale...not clear on your math point here. $1 USD = 6.25 rmb (close enough). $2/hr = 12.50 RMB/hr. You seem to infer that the 12.50 RMB translates to $12.50 USD. I can assure you that it does not! (I have lived in China the past 6 years). And your average worker here is not making even $2/hr. I'd be happy to put together a "grocery basket" for you, if you are interested.

There are no unions here, there are daily problems at Foxconn, and those stories do make the media here. Read Factory Girls by Leslie Chang. Workers here make a pittance, but it is better than being a farmer. I have talked to people while in Guilin and a farmer there might make about 1,000 RMB in a YEAR. They won't starve, but they are not moving up either. Consequently, the young, sometimes just out of middle school, head off to the cities in search of factory jobs. It is a pretty grim existence, but it is a way up and out of rural life. Additionally, as you might expect, the environmental regulations in China are a bit more lax than in the US, despite the use of solar, wind, energy efficient light bulbs, etc. The air quality here is not good, and everyone pays for it with their health. So, how do we avoid a race to the bottom? Or should we encourage a race to the bottom and have a situation where we have investors who make as much profit as possible and workers, who we try and get to work for the absolute least amount possible? That sounds like a recipe for revolution to me. Certainly a Dystopia anyway.

I worded that poorly and apologize. I just plucked $2 out of thin air for illustrative purposes.
My point was that it isn't as low of a wage as many would have you believe, as is evidenced by people moving from their villages to take these jobs.

I;m not giving a pass to anyone, but rather am just wondering what the solutions are. Should we fuel a "race to the bottom"? Of course not. But there are many instances where "environmental concerns" are ridiculous. We have far too many regulations and controls in place that only serve to further cripple business and have very little real effect. Most are credible and actually needed, but in too many instances that is not the case. It seems that often, the EPA is out of control.

The REAL bottom line in my mind is that Americans are unwilling to actually follow through on their supposed convictions. If you have a problem with companies who outsource to China then STOP BUYING THEIR PRODUCTS!

Their really isn't an easier solution. Unfortunately too many people lack the will power to actually live the values they claim to have. So what do we do alternatively, to help curb the problems outlined in this discussion.

As to your offer of putting together a "grocery basket" I would be interested and appreciate your first hand knowledge and willingness to share it with those reading along.