When do you buy scouting reports? Topic

I've read varying strategies. Waiting until after initial signing period so there are less total players and the price goes down? Or the opposite buying during the season with leftover recruiting cash to be able to search during the season before recruiting season starts? Or just buying a few local States when recruiting starts? Generally, I've been finding I have plenty of cash left over so maybe I should be buying earlier and more often?
2/11/2014 2:54 PM
I buy the local FSS as early as I can.

If I have money AFTER signing, I then look to buy the FSS from states farther away.
2/11/2014 3:09 PM
That's the right advice.  You have to get some FSS before recruiting starts or else you're giving everyone else first crack at the best available recruits.  I'd be interested to hear any reasons to wait until after signings.  Maybe if you have only one scholarship, no bonus cash, and are extremely risk-averse?  Or as a challenge?
2/11/2014 3:15 PM (edited)

The best reason to wait until after the signings start is to give yourself a wide swath of searching with less competition. For some reason, as well, a decent amount of really good players fall through the cracks. (Perhaps this is a condition only in D3, as upper level players will drop from d1 to 2, and 2 to 3).

So, I know there are some coaches who have built consistently good programs going late in the game where they can get all the best players left w/in some outrageous distance...say 1000 miles? It's a risk, and you're definitely going to be out of the running for the highest end players, but it basically ensures that you'll be getting pretty clean pickings of the available talent.

All this being said, and depending on how many scholarships I have that offseason, I will always buy some states before signing. Not always the same states, but generally the states that touch my state. If I have a decent amount of scholarships and I'm not loving how my recruiting is going, I will save a scholarship or 2 and some cash to do a cheapo version of that late-in-process strategy, and have found some excellent players that way.

Still, I echo Trentonjoe and llamanunts that just leaving the best players for everyone else is a recipe to keep yourself out of the top 10.

2/11/2014 3:43 PM
i agree, i think its tough to wait. really the argument for waiting, IMO, is that so often, if you get on a really good recruit, someone a division up or closer in the same division will take them away from you. i think if you are careful not to put too many eggs in one basket, you are better off recruiting early - but it sure is easy to burn yourself that way. i think recruiting local early and far later makes a lot of sense, because of the significantly increased risk and cost of distance recruits. but not even scouting locally early, that just sounds crazy to me.
2/11/2014 10:13 PM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/11/2014 3:09:00 PM (view original):
I buy the local FSS as early as I can.

If I have money AFTER signing, I then look to buy the FSS from states farther away.
Wow I agree, except for maybe that last part lol
2/11/2014 11:09 PM
i think this may well play differently at different divisions and also perhaps for schools - in DI - with different prestige

At a DI BCS school with good prestige, you tend to have enough budget to buy early and you need to.  At a DIII school, you may want to buy some but wait on others further away.  It has been decades since I was at DIII though, so get input from folks who live in DIII and DII
2/12/2014 6:30 AM
At DIII I'm very much a scout states within 400 miles early type of guy, very rarely do I wind up peeking further out.  My ideal scenario is good guys within 100 miles that I can aggressively pursue (really at all levels, but especially low levels).  I need to know who has blues.

I don't have a ton of DII experience, but played it very similar.

At DI, and I've only been low DI, it starts there, but I've definitely scouted the entire country after signings to try and find overlooked role players.  Generally the great ones are gone, but there can still be talent.  At DI I'm much more likely to be sending many scouting trips to internationals to try to find good overlooked guys.

I really couldn't imagine recruiting without at least some FSS, it's too blind.  I've seen way too  many guys that look good, then I get the FSS and see that they're capped out and useless since they can't grow.
2/12/2014 8:15 AM
I think there is a difference between D3 C- (rebuild) and D3 A+, in that if you are new to school and rebuilding, or your rebuild just has not gone as desired, there is "value" (broad meaning) in waiting on all aspects of recruiting until signing day or after. Consider the other thread regarding looking for abilities and not ratings, and disregard any potential growth, any Recruit pursued "blind" should be better than what is already on roster. You do not need the best recruit in the country or even in your backyard, you need better than what is on the roster.

Also I tend to think there is alot of emphasis placed on "potential" growth, to the extent of devaluing current ratings. I recently recruited a player "blind" because his attributes I was most interested in and his ability to play a role were already at acceptable levels.

Back to the point above, the distinction I was making was not value or hindrance of prestige (which at D3 can be overcome, if willing to spend), but the difference in "value" if willing to wait. If the recruit is a borderline D2/All-American D3, the A+ team will get first shot on a drop down or might even be recruiting the player as a seen D3. With D3 players being inherently flawed, it is very seldom you will find one that does everything -- and if you do, someone else has found that player as well and now you have to spend for him. For the same budget spent on just that 1 recruit, you could spread it between 2 and get the same ability (the whole of 2 players being better than 1). it is possible to recruit coast-to-coast for $1500 or less (excludes FSS).

As the teams roster improves, maybe there becomes a better incentive to protect your 200 mile zone or maybe that 1 recruit makes the finite difference in advancing the next round in the NT.

Most of my experience is at D3, only 1 season (I think) at D2. So this may be limited input.
2/12/2014 10:33 AM
I always buy during the season if I think my team prestige is going to drop at the end of the year...that way I can see who disappears from my D3 screen and have a better idea of who might drop quicker to me (or who I can probably pull back down fairly cheaply). Also lets me know what others of higher prestige are probably already seeing in the area, which can also be useful information at times.

Other than that, I buy close (inside 160/360, depending on division) immediately and then branch out from there if I don't like what I see on an as-needed basis.
2/12/2014 10:43 AM
For the vast majority of coaches I'd advise to buy them from the start. There are rare occasions at the highest level of D1 where it's not necessary, because the guy(s) you're targeting are so good their potential really doesn't matter. But I've only had 1 period where I felt like that and I've had an A+ team in Tark for about 30 seasons now. So pretty much always get FSS before you start putting effort into a player.
2/12/2014 11:19 AM
Posted by headpirate on 2/12/2014 10:33:00 AM (view original):
I think there is a difference between D3 C- (rebuild) and D3 A+, in that if you are new to school and rebuilding, or your rebuild just has not gone as desired, there is "value" (broad meaning) in waiting on all aspects of recruiting until signing day or after. Consider the other thread regarding looking for abilities and not ratings, and disregard any potential growth, any Recruit pursued "blind" should be better than what is already on roster. You do not need the best recruit in the country or even in your backyard, you need better than what is on the roster.

Also I tend to think there is alot of emphasis placed on "potential" growth, to the extent of devaluing current ratings. I recently recruited a player "blind" because his attributes I was most interested in and his ability to play a role were already at acceptable levels.

Back to the point above, the distinction I was making was not value or hindrance of prestige (which at D3 can be overcome, if willing to spend), but the difference in "value" if willing to wait. If the recruit is a borderline D2/All-American D3, the A+ team will get first shot on a drop down or might even be recruiting the player as a seen D3. With D3 players being inherently flawed, it is very seldom you will find one that does everything -- and if you do, someone else has found that player as well and now you have to spend for him. For the same budget spent on just that 1 recruit, you could spread it between 2 and get the same ability (the whole of 2 players being better than 1). it is possible to recruit coast-to-coast for $1500 or less (excludes FSS).

As the teams roster improves, maybe there becomes a better incentive to protect your 200 mile zone or maybe that 1 recruit makes the finite difference in advancing the next round in the NT.

Most of my experience is at D3, only 1 season (I think) at D2. So this may be limited input.
I'm interested in this discussion because I find that there is often a great deal of value and people falling through the cracks at the end of the recruiting cycle. Also, one of the best coaches on these boards (I forget who) wrote once, "I could build a perennial NT team by waiting until the last day of signings to recruit" and that always struck me as interesting.

The idea that a player has good baseline ratings and if they get better from there it's all gravy is interesting. Have you used this mostly when building your team? Perhaps to fill a roster role? What if that player keeps the good ratings but barely improves otherwise, have you ever dropped one of these players?
2/12/2014 12:05 PM
 
 
Also, one of the best coaches on these boards (I forget who) wrote once, "I could build a perennial NT team by waiting until the last day of signings to recruit" and that always struck me as interesting. 

That's from the aejones thread/doc.

I've signed some guys that had acceptable ratings as is, but I suppose my default is always looking for growth.  To me that depends on where I am in the cycle of a school.  If I just started there and need some guys to play now and not be horrible, initial ratings help.  I have signed JUCO/transfers that way, but generally my freshmen are all guys that I want to grow into something by junior/senior year (I suppose that's the gillispie model as opposed to possibly the aejones/headpirate model).

Of course he's right, it all depends on what level you're at and what's "acceptable".  Generally a 50/50 ATH/DEF guy could step in right now and play for me, but if I'm looking long term a 35/35 guy that could be 63+/63+ in a few years is much more appealing to me.  The 50/50 guy is probably going to have to learn the sets I use on offense and defense anyway.

Where I've used the current ratings type is with guys that are scorers from day 1.  They come in with an 80 LP or PER for example and I know they can score off the bench.
2/12/2014 12:21 PM
by the way, do also look at each state before you buy FSS for it

look at the recruits and consider whether there are any or enough guys there who (a) you would have a shot at getting and (b) even with good potentials would be useful

if you only need guards in the coming cycle and a state near you has no guard you would want unless 7 ratings are high-high potential, you may be better off not spending for FSS in that state,  Look at the pool in the state before you pay.
2/12/2014 12:35 PM
Posted by artie40 on 2/12/2014 12:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by headpirate on 2/12/2014 10:33:00 AM (view original):
I think there is a difference between D3 C- (rebuild) and D3 A+, in that if you are new to school and rebuilding, or your rebuild just has not gone as desired, there is "value" (broad meaning) in waiting on all aspects of recruiting until signing day or after. Consider the other thread regarding looking for abilities and not ratings, and disregard any potential growth, any Recruit pursued "blind" should be better than what is already on roster. You do not need the best recruit in the country or even in your backyard, you need better than what is on the roster.

Also I tend to think there is alot of emphasis placed on "potential" growth, to the extent of devaluing current ratings. I recently recruited a player "blind" because his attributes I was most interested in and his ability to play a role were already at acceptable levels.

Back to the point above, the distinction I was making was not value or hindrance of prestige (which at D3 can be overcome, if willing to spend), but the difference in "value" if willing to wait. If the recruit is a borderline D2/All-American D3, the A+ team will get first shot on a drop down or might even be recruiting the player as a seen D3. With D3 players being inherently flawed, it is very seldom you will find one that does everything -- and if you do, someone else has found that player as well and now you have to spend for him. For the same budget spent on just that 1 recruit, you could spread it between 2 and get the same ability (the whole of 2 players being better than 1). it is possible to recruit coast-to-coast for $1500 or less (excludes FSS).

As the teams roster improves, maybe there becomes a better incentive to protect your 200 mile zone or maybe that 1 recruit makes the finite difference in advancing the next round in the NT.

Most of my experience is at D3, only 1 season (I think) at D2. So this may be limited input.
I'm interested in this discussion because I find that there is often a great deal of value and people falling through the cracks at the end of the recruiting cycle. Also, one of the best coaches on these boards (I forget who) wrote once, "I could build a perennial NT team by waiting until the last day of signings to recruit" and that always struck me as interesting.

The idea that a player has good baseline ratings and if they get better from there it's all gravy is interesting. Have you used this mostly when building your team? Perhaps to fill a roster role? What if that player keeps the good ratings but barely improves otherwise, have you ever dropped one of these players?
Here is the player I recruited blind: http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=0&pid=2665168. Play a Flex/FCP. ATH/DEF/REB/LP/PER came in Red; SPD/BLK(which I do not account for)/STA came in Black; BH/PA came in Blue. I probably will keep this player all 4 years, although by the time he is a SR he may be getting role player minutes. This is Wash Jeff Tark, had team previously, quit game for awhile and when came back they were open.

I have read aejones manifesto, but also got mentoring advice during my first tour and this strategy tended to work well. I very seldom got the stellar recruit everyone talked about, but as a whole the teams usually play well together. I recruit to FCP def first, and this recruit fits close to my "ideal" 4, which he could have done without much more improvement. With some improvement in SPD/BH/PA, I think I am also getting a sometimes 3.

As for late/post signing recruiting, it takes patience and focus. Almost always recruiting 1 player at a time. Someone also mentioned "pre"-scouting the state to make sure there are worthwhile number of recruits. Once signings have occurred I pick my initial preferred recruit, check to see if more identified recruits are from same state, or after FSS check the rest of recruits. Once the recruit signs, I move to the next. 

While watching recruits make drastic improvements is fun, it is also nice being able to use the recruit in a meaningful way sooner. Since I play FCP, I want all players available (very seldom would I RS anyone). It is nice to see a 35/35/35 ATH/SPD/DEF improve to 60's, but for 1st 2 seasons the recruit is not contributing anything meaningful. The recruit that comes in 50/50/50 and improves to same 60 has more meaningful playing time sooner.

By FSS late and recruiting 1 at a time, I take the 1st player that fills a role or ability on my team. While it is fun taking Jabari Parker, I am just as satisfied with 5 Shawn Larkins.

Edit: I almost edited out some paragraphs, but considering my lack of NT titles I doubt I am breaking any new ground here. And if I am completely wrong, maybe someone will point it out, I can make corrections, and then get a title this time around.

2/12/2014 4:24 PM (edited)
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