Hard to see the merit in having an extremely high defensive rating for individuals and a team. We are considerably higher than all others with the highest ATH. I see no measurable difference in how the team plays. As a matter of fact a team of underclassmen (only one JR and one SR) just beat my squad while shooting an unbelievable 54 percent. They turned it over a considerable amount less than any other opponent this season. This tells me that a high DEF rating is useless to a point. I don't think the game could possibly be taking into account the defensive number. Could there be a cap on the usefulness of this? I'm not sure.

I did this as an experiment to see if I just focused on athletic monsters whose rating suggested they would be a monster on defense. Well, I'd think that it isn't working. While we have created a lot of turnovers, this team always has ever since I went to the press 20+ seasons ago with DEF ratings in the 40s. We are holding teams to 41 percent shooting, not even close to the best in DIII. I just would expect with the ratings as high as they are in ATH and DEF that the stats would be much better. Especially against a middle of road schedule. 

Right now, we are not only the highest in DIII in both ATH and DEF, but higher in both than any DII team. We have 8 upper classmen who are A- or better in the press. Could it be the low speed? Is speed the difference maker in DIII now? More than or equal to ATH?

I'm interested to know what veteran coaches think of this. 

Speed is very important in perimeter defense.   I think it is more important than ATH in covering 3 point shots but  I don't think that is universally accepted.

Your team is causing 22 TO/G.   I think that is a result of your tremendous defense.   It might be similar if you had a backcourt speed ratings in the 80's as opposed to defense.

The DEF equation  for press is roughly 45% DEF, 30% SPEED, 20% ATH (that's a guess).

I don't know if that was helpful....

Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/25/2014 9:51:00 AM (view original):
Speed is very important in perimeter defense.   I think it is more important than ATH in covering 3 point shots but  I don't think that is universally accepted.

Your team is causing 22 TO/G.   I think that is a result of your tremendous defense.   It might be similar if you had a backcourt speed ratings in the 80's as opposed to defense.

The DEF equation  for press is roughly 45% DEF, 30% SPEED, 20% ATH (that's a guess).

I don't know if that was helpful....

I've found that (in a press) steals are more dependent on a players speed than defense.  Would you agree with that?

I agree with Clouse. Having recently switched most of my teams to FB/FCP, it seems that speed & athleticism are at least as important as DEF, and maybe more.

As someone who's sold out before on Ath/Def to the tune of 70+ in D3 like this..the problem is you've completely neglected just about everything besides Ath/Def.  I understand that was part of the point, but you're going too far with it.

41 team Spd in a Press with no listed guards above 54 Spd won't cut it.  I think that's the biggest reason the defense isn't playing more like you're expecting. 

You also have absolutely zero shot blocking and rebounding, which hurts the interior defense a lot.

Kinda.

This is just a guess but I think steals are generated at two different times in the event tree.

The first time would be very early (probably first) where there is the "Does the ball get past 1/2 court?" .   At this point my guess is that team ratings are used (maybe with the guards stats being emphasised) .   

The second time is when the SIM decided who is going to shoot.  There is then an equation that decides FOUL, SHOT or TURNOVER.  This is an individual vs individual role.

The way I think STEALS works into this is there is an decision made after the "is there a turnover" produces a yes answer.   I think what happens is that there is then a does the defense steal the ball where the individuals SPEED has a significant impact.

So, in a nut shell, I am suggesting that  HIGH DEFENSE creates more TURNOVERS, HIGH SPEED turns the TURNOVERS into STEALS.

Posted by killbatman on 2/25/2014 10:15:00 AM (view original):
As someone who's sold out before on Ath/Def to the tune of 70+ in D3 like this..the problem is you've completely neglected just about everything besides Ath/Def.  I understand that was part of the point, but you're going too far with it.

41 team Spd in a Press with no listed guards above 54 Spd won't cut it.  I think that's the biggest reason the defense isn't playing more like you're expecting. 

You also have absolutely zero shot blocking and rebounding, which hurts the interior defense a lot.

It would be interesting to see if you are giving up "to many" OREB and tip ins.   I don't know what to many is but that could lead to the higher than desired FG% against.

Posted by killbatman on 2/25/2014 10:15:00 AM (view original):
As someone who's sold out before on Ath/Def to the tune of 70+ in D3 like this..the problem is you've completely neglected just about everything besides Ath/Def.  I understand that was part of the point, but you're going too far with it.

41 team Spd in a Press with no listed guards above 54 Spd won't cut it.  I think that's the biggest reason the defense isn't playing more like you're expecting. 

You also have absolutely zero shot blocking and rebounding, which hurts the interior defense a lot.

I'm thinking man to man would work a little bit better. However, on the flip side of the coin, I think you have to press to compensate for the low rebounding ratings by getting TO's off a FCP. However, even with the low IQ grades, I would still go man to man and maybe by the end of the season, you can get them into the B range with 20-25 minutes of practice.

Posted by killbatman on 2/25/2014 10:15:00 AM (view original):
As someone who's sold out before on Ath/Def to the tune of 70+ in D3 like this..the problem is you've completely neglected just about everything besides Ath/Def.  I understand that was part of the point, but you're going too far with it.

41 team Spd in a Press with no listed guards above 54 Spd won't cut it.  I think that's the biggest reason the defense isn't playing more like you're expecting. 

You also have absolutely zero shot blocking and rebounding, which hurts the interior defense a lot.

Instead of selling out to get the highest amount in a couple of ratings, I have often viewed it as "getting the least amount that would be acceptable." So instead of trying to get "the most DEF" (resulting in 70's), thinking about it as "so long as they are a minimum 45."

Not saying this is reasonable to expect, and this team went 35-0 for a reason, but here is a comparison of Bard's team averages to my J&W team that sold out on Ath/Def.  We ran Flex/Press.  I think Bard would be a lot better if you took just 5-10 points of that Ath/Def and spread it around.  Also agree M2M would be better for them.

Disclaimer: individual players matter more than team averages, but the averages can be useful to compare.  I felt at the time that J&W was paper thin--had just enough--at everything but Ath/Spd/Def and Bard is clearly lacking in some of those.

team rating: J&W, Bard

Ath: 70, 70
Spd: 55, 41
Reb: 37, 27
Def: 73, 80
Blk: 32, 24
LP: 36, 27
Per: 38, 33
BH: 40, 28
Pass: 38, 32
ST: 80, 77

I have about 40 seasons over 2 names. Don't claim to know everything. A friend and I have played vs each other the last couple yrs. his rating and offense is better with a better pg. I thought he'd get me but I beat him both times. He went with the idea of 40-50 min def, but I try to get 50+. My def shut his better offense down, but his his def couldn't completely shut my mediocre offense down. The ole saying works most of the time. Defense wins championships.

I do believe spd is huge with def. I had. 40 spd sf a few seasons ago with 70 def and Ath or so but didn't shut people down as I hoped. The response I got from coaches was he needed more spd.

Those teams of yours are excellent!   I wouldn't contradict anyone that's already posted, but the problem isn't on defense.  Bard turned it over 14 times against a zone!  There's not a single player on that team that can reliably dribble the ball past mid court and none that will shoot from 3 and it is still 8-2.

When I've had success with the flex or fastbreak, it's been when I've had good ratings in speed, perimeter & passing (at least guard ratings).  You're having to overcome too much trying to run flex with nothing, and I mean nothing, in any of those categories.   If you adjust your team construction down to recruit C's with much higher REB/SB and guards with much better guard ratings, then you could keep the forwards exactly as you have them and be crushing teams!

Posted by rogelio on 2/25/2014 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Those teams of yours are excellent!   I wouldn't contradict anyone that's already posted, but the problem isn't on defense.  Bard turned it over 14 times against a zone!  There's not a single player on that team that can reliably dribble the ball past mid court and none that will shoot from 3 and it is still 8-2.

When I've had success with the flex or fastbreak, it's been when I've had good ratings in speed, perimeter & passing (at least guard ratings).  You're having to overcome too much trying to run flex with nothing, and I mean nothing, in any of those categories.   If you adjust your team construction down to recruit C's with much higher REB/SB and guards with much better guard ratings, then you could keep the forwards exactly as you have them and be crushing teams!

excellent point. I knew I was sacrificing on the other talents to get the DEF and ATH. Rebounding is probably the biggest one.

I know that its working better with Eureka but I have much better overall players with them. 

Posted by killbatman on 2/25/2014 10:15:00 AM (view original):
As someone who's sold out before on Ath/Def to the tune of 70+ in D3 like this..the problem is you've completely neglected just about everything besides Ath/Def.  I understand that was part of the point, but you're going too far with it.

41 team Spd in a Press with no listed guards above 54 Spd won't cut it.  I think that's the biggest reason the defense isn't playing more like you're expecting. 

You also have absolutely zero shot blocking and rebounding, which hurts the interior defense a lot.

100 percent correct. I did in fact completely ignore other attributes if I saw the potential of 70+ in both ATH and DEF. I also know that the flex needs passers and perimeter shooters and I don't really have either.