What effects # of shots taken Topic

bagger288
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I've found ways to consistently have good offensive production as far as FG% goes. However I'm finding in equal tempo games (slowdown vs. slowdown) or Normal vs normal, I'm shooting 9-10 less shots per game. Recently in a slowdown vs. slowdown game I was outrebounded by 1 and POT was only a differential of 4 points. So that only accounts to MAYBE 3 shots, I had 4 more Turnovers because he ran fullcourt press but I have seen this differential against teams not running that defense as well.

The ONLY was i've found to keep up in shots taken consistently is to run uptempo. Anyone else have this problem or can help me out as to why its happening? I almost feel like I can never run slowdown anymore as I worry I will lose because I don't get enough shots off.
9/23/2014 5:32 PM
mullycj
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whhaaaaatt?
9/23/2014 8:41 PM
bagger288
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What effects your team as far as the number of shots taken? I have been consistently less than the teams i've been facing EXCEPT when I run uptempo

9/23/2014 8:47 PM
dave456
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I don't think tempo should impact the number of shots your team takes in a game, as compared to your opponent. I think you should look at the difference in rebounds, turnovers, and FTs in the box score for the explanation, then work to understand the cause of the specific differences.
9/23/2014 9:01 PM
jaymc2007
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Posted by dave456 on 9/23/2014 9:01:00 PM (view original):
I don't think tempo should impact the number of shots your team takes in a game, as compared to your opponent. I think you should look at the difference in rebounds, turnovers, and FTs in the box score for the explanation, then work to understand the cause of the specific differences.
You don't think so at all?  I think I might.  Because if I am playing somebody who runs slowdown, he is going to take a lot less shots that someone I play who runs uptempo, therefore giving me more/less possessions.

Now the shot difference between slowdown vs slowdown, normal vs normal like he stated would have to do with difference of TOs, FTs, offensive rebounds, etc. like you said.
9/23/2014 9:21 PM
mullycj
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He said "compared to his opponent". The only affect tempo will have is magnify your shot ratio.

ie - if you lose the possession game, uptempo will make it even worse.

9/23/2014 10:32 PM
llamanunts
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Posted by jaymc2007 on 9/23/2014 9:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dave456 on 9/23/2014 9:01:00 PM (view original):
I don't think tempo should impact the number of shots your team takes in a game, as compared to your opponent. I think you should look at the difference in rebounds, turnovers, and FTs in the box score for the explanation, then work to understand the cause of the specific differences.
You don't think so at all?  I think I might.  Because if I am playing somebody who runs slowdown, he is going to take a lot less shots that someone I play who runs uptempo, therefore giving me more/less possessions.

Now the shot difference between slowdown vs slowdown, normal vs normal like he stated would have to do with difference of TOs, FTs, offensive rebounds, etc. like you said.
It doesn't make sense that differing tempos would lead to different shot totals.  If I'm playing slowdown and you're playing uptempo, we still essentially take turns having possessions.  It's not like you get bonus possessions, like your team could lap mine or something.  As noted above, the difference comes down to rebounds, turnovers, and fouls.

Thought experiment - conditions are that you're running uptempo and I'm running slowdown, nobody ever turns the ball over, nobody ever fouls:

Scenario 1: Both of our teams make 100% of our shots.  You bring the ball up the court quickly and make your shot.  We bring the ball up slowly and make our shot.  Rinse, repeat.  How do you make a shot difference greater than one out of that?

Scenario 2: Both of our teams miss every shot, and nobody gets any offensive rebounds.  You bring the ball up quickly and miss.  We bring the ball up slowly and miss.  Rinse, repeat.  How do you get ahead in number of shots?

...and so on.  Short version (tooooooooooo late!): Can you construct a scenario in which you gain an advantage in shots taken *without* a difference in turnovers, fouls, or offensive rebounds?

9/24/2014 7:57 AM
docmastermd
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Don't look at just shots. Sometimes you get fouled. Sometimes you travel.

Look at the Offensive Rebounding and Turnover numbers. Each one you have in your advantage is another possesion and another shot (or trip to FT line). If you find you are constantly giving the other team more more possesions than you, slowdown would limit that. If you are getting more possesions than them, uptemp would make that number go up even higher. (excluding things like a short bench making you play bad).

That's how VCU plays IRL. They know they are gonna get steals because of how the coach recruited. They exagerate that by running a full tilt press and try to get as many possesions as possible.
9/24/2014 10:07 AM
artie40
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Posted by docmastermd on 9/24/2014 10:07:00 AM (view original):
Don't look at just shots. Sometimes you get fouled. Sometimes you travel.

Look at the Offensive Rebounding and Turnover numbers. Each one you have in your advantage is another possesion and another shot (or trip to FT line). If you find you are constantly giving the other team more more possesions than you, slowdown would limit that. If you are getting more possesions than them, uptemp would make that number go up even higher. (excluding things like a short bench making you play bad).

That's how VCU plays IRL. They know they are gonna get steals because of how the coach recruited. They exagerate that by running a full tilt press and try to get as many possesions as possible.
Yes, you should be able to work out the exact possession ration by the number of FT's, TO, Off Reb and Total Shots.

STARTERS MIN FGM-A FGM3-A FTM-A OFF REB AST TO STL BLK PF PTS
Totals 200 13-38 4-12 13-18 8 22 2 19 6 3 21 43
Totals 200 21-42 8-14 18-21 9 28 13 14 9 2 13 68


This is a recent game of mine. I was +5 in TO, and +1 in O-Reb. I took 4 more shots and 3 more FT's. That is roughly 6 more possessions (as the TO differential and O-Reb differential would show)

Now, usually I get a higher FT differential so I end up with less FG attempts.
9/24/2014 3:32 PM
jaymc2007
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Posted by llamanunts on 9/24/2014 7:57:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jaymc2007 on 9/23/2014 9:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dave456 on 9/23/2014 9:01:00 PM (view original):
I don't think tempo should impact the number of shots your team takes in a game, as compared to your opponent. I think you should look at the difference in rebounds, turnovers, and FTs in the box score for the explanation, then work to understand the cause of the specific differences.
You don't think so at all?  I think I might.  Because if I am playing somebody who runs slowdown, he is going to take a lot less shots that someone I play who runs uptempo, therefore giving me more/less possessions.

Now the shot difference between slowdown vs slowdown, normal vs normal like he stated would have to do with difference of TOs, FTs, offensive rebounds, etc. like you said.
It doesn't make sense that differing tempos would lead to different shot totals.  If I'm playing slowdown and you're playing uptempo, we still essentially take turns having possessions.  It's not like you get bonus possessions, like your team could lap mine or something.  As noted above, the difference comes down to rebounds, turnovers, and fouls.

Thought experiment - conditions are that you're running uptempo and I'm running slowdown, nobody ever turns the ball over, nobody ever fouls:

Scenario 1: Both of our teams make 100% of our shots.  You bring the ball up the court quickly and make your shot.  We bring the ball up slowly and make our shot.  Rinse, repeat.  How do you make a shot difference greater than one out of that?

Scenario 2: Both of our teams miss every shot, and nobody gets any offensive rebounds.  You bring the ball up quickly and miss.  We bring the ball up slowly and miss.  Rinse, repeat.  How do you get ahead in number of shots?

...and so on.  Short version (tooooooooooo late!): Can you construct a scenario in which you gain an advantage in shots taken *without* a difference in turnovers, fouls, or offensive rebounds?

No, no, no.  Not what I meant.  Let me try to be more clear, I am sorry, I can see where I didn't explain myself .

Your scenarios to me are correct.  If there is no missed shots, no fouls, no turnovers, etc.... We will both take X amount of shots.

What I am saying is, if I am a slow tempo team playing a slow tempo team... And a shot is taken every 30 seconds, therefore 2 shots a minute for 40 minutes which goes to 80 total shots (40 shots each).

Now, if I am that same slow tempo team, taking a shot every 30 seconds, but the team I am playing is an uptempo team taking a shot every 15 seconds.  So now there is 2 shots every 45 seconds making it 108 shots total (I would actually need another 30 seconds to get this but you get my point) therefore making 54 shots to each squad.

So that was my point slow vs slow gets my team 40 shots a game while slow vs uptempo gets my team 54 shots a game.
9/25/2014 4:33 PM
mullycj
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Your math still doesn't work. Think about it a little more.
9/25/2014 9:34 PM
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jaymc2007
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I'm not talking about a team winning, I am saying total shots.  If I am a team that plays slowdown tempo.... A game that my opponent is a slowdown also will have less total shots than if I played an uptempo team.  That math works, both teams takes the same amount of shots in the game.  The slow vs slow will feature less shots than a slow vs fast.  I promise that math works.
9/26/2014 12:20 AM
mullycj
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ok well yes total shot will be very different. Just not shot differential.

I was actually arguing against the initial poster and not your argument.
9/26/2014 1:04 AM
bagger288
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Posted by mullycj on 9/26/2014 1:04:00 AM (view original):
ok well yes total shot will be very different. Just not shot differential.

I was actually arguing against the initial poster and not your argument.
I've done some further research and found I can link most of the reasons I'm short on FG attempted, mostly because of fouls honestly. I'm forcing 2+ more fouls than my opponent is forcing so thats at least 2+ shots a game that I'm going to the fouline for. I have moved heavy practice minutes to the free throw line as i was getting shelled there previously. Thanks everyone!
9/26/2014 11:45 AM
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