How defensively effective would a guard like this be at D3 on an FCP team:

80 ATH
95 SPD
35 DEF
85 ST

Very

I wouldnt personally say very. I think he could hold his own though.

Would you say a 70/70/70 guard is very effective?
this guys will have a similar effect on oFg%, foul more and create more steals than the balanced guy. I would say the stamina is less important for someone like this.

I would say effective rather than very effective. Why do you think 80/95/35 is equal to 70/70/70? Just wondering.

It’s similar, 10 points of ath and 25 speed are close to 35 points of def.

In FCP for guards, I put the defensive score as 40% def, 25% ath, 25% speed, 5% block. I know that’s only 95% but I am unsure about where to put the last 5% :)

Posted by Trentonjoe on 6/3/2020 6:10:00 PM (view original):
It’s similar, 10 points of ath and 25 speed are close to 35 points of def.

In FCP for guards, I put the defensive score as 40% def, 25% ath, 25% speed, 5% block. I know that’s only 95% but I am unsure about where to put the last 5% :)

what about IQ/stamina

So if it's the weights you established, the player's "defensive rating" would be the following for each scenerio (assuming block and the other 5% are 0).

70/70/70: 63

80/95/35: 57.75

64/64/64: 57.6

So he resembles a 64/64/64 defender AND that's not taking into account diminishing returns which is a big deal.

Posted by Sportsbulls on 6/3/2020 8:21:00 PM (view original):
So if it's the weights you established, the player's "defensive rating" would be the following for each scenerio (assuming block and the other 5% are 0).

70/70/70: 63

80/95/35: 57.75

64/64/64: 57.6

So he resembles a 64/64/64 defender AND that's not taking into account diminishing returns which is a big deal.

Do you think some ratings have diminshing returns and others have increasing returns in value?

For instance I think STA, LP and PER (especially) have increasing returns.

Posted by cubcub113 on 6/3/2020 6:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 6/3/2020 6:10:00 PM (view original):
It’s similar, 10 points of ath and 25 speed are close to 35 points of def.

In FCP for guards, I put the defensive score as 40% def, 25% ath, 25% speed, 5% block. I know that’s only 95% but I am unsure about where to put the last 5% :)

what about IQ/stamina

Those certainly play in. I use IQ like a multiplier and stamina as a team puzzle piece. For guys like the example, I feel stamina is less important because he is more likely to be assigned fouls.

I guess, in my mind, STA is something that becomes valueless at some point. If I had 12 players at 100 is that any better than 12 players at 90? Maybe valueless is the wrong term any diminishing returns is better.

Posted by Sportsbulls on 6/3/2020 8:21:00 PM (view original):
So if it's the weights you established, the player's "defensive rating" would be the following for each scenerio (assuming block and the other 5% are 0).

70/70/70: 63

80/95/35: 57.75

64/64/64: 57.6

So he resembles a 64/64/64 defender AND that's not taking into account diminishing returns which is a big deal.

Well, that's what i get for doing math in my head. I guess i should have said 65/65/65, although I was originally thinking he was a wee bit worse so maybe 67/67/67. Either way, that's very effective if he's coming off the bench and above average even if starting. Elite? No, but good.

Well then, I guess he plays like a 64/64/64 guy that will get more steals and foul more often.

I have no idea what you mean about diminishing returns. Do you think going from 90->91 in speed is somehow less valuable than 70->71?

I think that's true in the truly elite players in some cases but never for average players.

This is shaping up to be a decent old school discussion, someone please jump in and ruin it.

I threw this question out there because I knew it would spark quite the discourse.

I've always seen two camps in HD - one that says ATH/SPD can't really comp for DEF outside maybe a 10 point differential - but then I've heard from you and others, TJ, and I've also seen stats (though admittedly haven't bothered to extract them to do a meaningful analysis) that seem to indicate the most disruptive defenders (though not necessarily most efficient defenders - I'm talking turnovers forced & DEF FG% with acknowledgment you'll see higher foul rates) tend to have high ATH/SPD and lower DEF, particularly in D3.

The top 10 steals leaders in Knight D3 right now have the following ratings & steals-per-foul:

	ATH	SPD	DEF	ST	DEF IQ	Defense	SPG	FPG	Steals per Foul
1	74	73	82	88	B+	FCP	2.9	1.8	1.61
2	42	76	28	85	A-	FCP	2.8	2.5	1.12
3	43	93	65	87	A-	FCP	2.7	2.2	1.23
4	65	79	51	95	A	M2M	2.5	1.9	1.32
5	52	80	58	82	A	FCP	2.5	3.0	0.83
6	50	92	44	89	A	M2M	2.4	1.8	1.33
7	53	96	48	94	A-	FCP	2.4	2.6	0.92
8	48	48	52	82	A-	FCP	2.4	2.9	0.83
9	59	93	59	83	A-	M2M	2.3	2.3	1.00
10	52	85	36	89	A-	M2M	2.2	2.2	1.00

Really analyzing the stats is a bit beyond me but I do know that high speed guys get steals :)

Posted by Trentonjoe on 6/4/2020 8:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Sportsbulls on 6/3/2020 8:21:00 PM (view original):
So if it's the weights you established, the player's "defensive rating" would be the following for each scenerio (assuming block and the other 5% are 0).

70/70/70: 63

80/95/35: 57.75

64/64/64: 57.6

So he resembles a 64/64/64 defender AND that's not taking into account diminishing returns which is a big deal.

Well, that's what i get for doing math in my head. I guess i should have said 65/65/65, although I was originally thinking he was a wee bit worse so maybe 67/67/67. Either way, that's very effective if he's coming off the bench and above average even if starting. Elite? No, but good.

Well then, I guess he plays like a 64/64/64 guy that will get more steals and foul more often.

I have no idea what you mean about diminishing returns. Do you think going from 90->91 in speed is somehow less valuable than 70->71?

I think that's true in the truly elite players in some cases but never for average players.

It is shaping up to be a good old school discussion, agree. And yes, there are diminishing returns and 70 to 71 is better than 90 to 91 because of diminishing returns.