recruiting ethics Topic

Is it OK to discuss recruiting approaches with other coaches, and make agreements, like "I'll leave this guy alone, you leave that guy alone." Or, "I'll back off this prospect now, next time we clash, it's your turn to back off". that type of thing.

I am pretty sure there is not a written rule against it - if there is, I am missing it. But I am also interested in what other people think about it.
8/28/2020 2:04 PM
....we going to do this all over again.
8/28/2020 2:07 PM
Posted by deroches on 8/28/2020 2:04:00 PM (view original):
Is it OK to discuss recruiting approaches with other coaches, and make agreements, like "I'll leave this guy alone, you leave that guy alone." Or, "I'll back off this prospect now, next time we clash, it's your turn to back off". that type of thing.

I am pretty sure there is not a written rule against it - if there is, I am missing it. But I am also interested in what other people think about it.
This is collusion, which is against the fair play guidelines. Look at Collusive Transactions under Hoops Dynasty & Gridiron Dynasty.

Don't do it.
8/28/2020 2:10 PM
I guess we do need to pin those at the top.
8/28/2020 2:12 PM
when people with 169 seasons are asking this there are some issues that need to be straightened out on the WIS side

I took part in several quid pro quo in the past as a decently experienced coach not knowing it was against fair play. In fact, the first one was when I was in D2 2.0 when a very experienced coach brought up the idea in a sitemail
8.2.2
8/28/2020 2:27 PM
Of course that's not ok. How does that even sound ok? I just posted that in another thread. (I assume that's why this came up?)
8/28/2020 2:27 PM
Posted by hypnotoad on 8/28/2020 2:12:00 PM (view original):
I guess we do need to pin those at the top.
Yes.

I think for some of us, the ethics seem obvious. And for others, what seems obvious is that you would want to do this kind of thing, if the system lets you do it, and there is no flashing sign that says “Do Not Do This Thing” in front of you.

So better pin it.
8/28/2020 2:40 PM (edited)
Posted by shoe3 on 8/28/2020 2:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by hypnotoad on 8/28/2020 2:12:00 PM (view original):
I guess we do need to pin those at the top.
Yes.

I think for some of us, the ethics seems obvious. And for others, what seems obvious is that you would want to do this kind of thing, if the system lets you do it, and there is no flashing sign that says “Do Not Do This Thing” in front of you.

So better pin it.
+1.

Not because it would be a snarky and LOLsy thing for WIS to do, but it would genuinely be helpful for experienced players and new players alike.
8/28/2020 2:39 PM
Posted by kcsundevil on 8/28/2020 2:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by shoe3 on 8/28/2020 2:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by hypnotoad on 8/28/2020 2:12:00 PM (view original):
I guess we do need to pin those at the top.
Yes.

I think for some of us, the ethics seems obvious. And for others, what seems obvious is that you would want to do this kind of thing, if the system lets you do it, and there is no flashing sign that says “Do Not Do This Thing” in front of you.

So better pin it.
+1.

Not because it would be a snarky and LOLsy thing for WIS to do, but it would genuinely be helpful for experienced players and new players alike.
Oh yeah, I’m being serious, not snarky. Some folks will try whatever they can get away with in a game, and I respect that on a certain level. Best to just be as clear as possible in those cases when the system can’t be made to make the behavior impossible. That’s why I always stopped short of using the term “cheat“ with thewizard on the work ethic loophole.
8/28/2020 2:47 PM
I'm not sure why anyone would think this is ok? I'm not trying to belittle anyone that tried this. But how can someone feel it's ok sitemailing an independent coach, a conversation between you and him only, working together to create a favorable outcome for you two only? I just don't understand

But having this thread tells me that it needs to be pinned, I agree. I'm a little shocked by this really
8/28/2020 2:48 PM
Posted by shoe3 on 8/28/2020 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kcsundevil on 8/28/2020 2:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by shoe3 on 8/28/2020 2:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by hypnotoad on 8/28/2020 2:12:00 PM (view original):
I guess we do need to pin those at the top.
Yes.

I think for some of us, the ethics seems obvious. And for others, what seems obvious is that you would want to do this kind of thing, if the system lets you do it, and there is no flashing sign that says “Do Not Do This Thing” in front of you.

So better pin it.
+1.

Not because it would be a snarky and LOLsy thing for WIS to do, but it would genuinely be helpful for experienced players and new players alike.
Oh yeah, I’m being serious, not snarky. Some folks will try whatever they can get away with in a game, and I respect that on a certain level. Best to just be as clear as possible in those cases when the system can’t be made to make the behavior impossible. That’s why I always stopped short of using the term “cheat“ with thewizard on the work ethic loophole.
Sorry man, didn't mean to imply anything.
8/28/2020 2:51 PM
I also feel a LOT better about my own career after hearing all the things people try to pull off. Not that anybody cares!
8/28/2020 2:57 PM
Posted by topdogggbm on 8/28/2020 2:48:00 PM (view original):
I'm not sure why anyone would think this is ok? I'm not trying to belittle anyone that tried this. But how can someone feel it's ok sitemailing an independent coach, a conversation between you and him only, working together to create a favorable outcome for you two only? I just don't understand

But having this thread tells me that it needs to be pinned, I agree. I'm a little shocked by this really
i totally hear you man, i was similarly baffled myself a dozen years ago. i did not see how anybody could fail to mentally take that concept to its logical conclusion - once they considered it seriously for the first time.

the experience was a little eye opening because even after substantial conversations with a lot of folks, private, low intensity ones, a lot of people disagreed it was even wrong. they thought this was a fun casual game and people should be able to play however they wanted. a lot of other people would start in a similar place, but would think about it for the first time, hear the story about the dozen BCS schools drafting in whatever world, something like that - and would go... yeah, i can see how taken to its logical conclusion, this has to go. but it was definitely a healthy mix of both.

this is what i was trying to get at with the blind spot stuff. casual folks may have never ever heard about fair play guidelines, or at least, may have never taken two minutes to consider their action (and yes, the guidelines should be stickied IMO, we've said this for a decade). even if they have, plenty will disagree at least until after they have thought about it at more than a superficial level (or at least they'll disagree its a 'big deal', more like driving 10mph over the limit), and some people aren't even on board after that. most can be convinced over time but there is definitely an attitude among folks like 'look im paying for this **** to have a little fun just leave me alone'. and i sympathize with that.

i don't agree with the conclusions reached by those folks, but i really struggle to say these alternative viewpoints, which are underpinned by an alternate set of values (casual fun over competition), are any less legitimate or reasonable or worthy of respect, than ours. i definitely consider myself by default more competitive than most, and i'm not sure my pro-competitive nature is necessarily the right answer here - i mean, i am not questioning if collusion should be allowed. im questioning under what standing i have to suggest we dictate to others than competition trumps casual fun, to tell them their values are wrong and mine are right. i'm questioning if we should do so and if we do how we can do so in a responsible, compassionate manner. i mean, i ultimately agree it had to be done, but this issue is really not as simple as it seems on its face. like me, dogg, you may need to actual hear it from the mouths of these people, i'd encourage you to engage with that sitemail guy you mentioned and try to genuinely understand his position, before pushing yours. until you can put yourselves in their shoes, you'll continue to be baffled by how others are reaching a different conclusion than you. i had to hear it from a dozen people before i could no longer write them off as idiots or cheaters, hopefully you can do better than me :)
8/28/2020 4:15 PM (edited)
Posted by shoe3 on 8/28/2020 2:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by hypnotoad on 8/28/2020 2:12:00 PM (view original):
I guess we do need to pin those at the top.
Yes.

I think for some of us, the ethics seem obvious. And for others, what seems obvious is that you would want to do this kind of thing, if the system lets you do it, and there is no flashing sign that says “Do Not Do This Thing” in front of you.

So better pin it.
100% agree. I mentioned in the other thread that I knew the rules from the community. But if I'm being honest, I had no idea there was an actual link to the set rules. I just assumed those were societally-known rules put in place.

I feel really dumb for assuming there was no written rules anywhere. Pin it.
8/28/2020 5:40 PM
Well, thank you everyone for the mild admonishment. Yes I do feel kind of stupid for even asking at this point.

How could I think it might be OK? well, I have seen it, though not lately. Owners chatting back and forth in conf chat. I have seen situations where I didn't see the chat but it seemed like it must have happened, maybe via sitemail, or maybe because the parties know each other IRL.

I do want to point out that I have never done this myself. What got me thinking about it was a current recruiting situation in one of my worlds, obviously.

Last thought:if I asked WIS for any one thing, it would be a better search feature. I just read the fair play guidelines, since KCSundevil linked to it. Somehow I stumbled through 169 seasons without seeing that. Before I posted this question, I did search the forums using keywords like "ethics" and "collusion", and it didn't come up.

169 seasons. God I'm old. I had no idea until someone pointed that out.
8/28/2020 7:29 PM
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