Quote: Originally posted by furry_nipps on 5/31/2010
I don't get it. I must not remember what its like being in div III, because aside from his rebounding his team looks fine for running the press IMO. Certainly better then a 1-9 team vrs a 200+ SOS team. His ath/speed is good, his IQ is not great, but its not like hes running a set with no IQ like I'm doing. He goes 11 deep with everyone between 23 and 13 MPG so stamina really shouldn't be that big of an issue. I have yet to look at his PBP - maybe it is an issue, but certainly looking at the stats he shouldn't be getting ran out that much while still using his depth.

Compare his roster to Susquehanna's (arguably the best team he's played so far), who run a Press or Press/Zone with crappy Zone IQs -- they have better and more consistent ATH/SPD, better Press IQs, better STA, better minute distribution... and that's simply looking at the areas you would expect to apply directly to a team's ability to run Press, and not side areas like REB (where Virgina Wesleyan kinda sucks hard.)

Now, they're also one of the top DIII schools in Tark, and have the talent to match. But at least in my eyes there's a stark difference between those two rosters, and in the way zeus seems to recruit and run his team vs mike.

Simply put, the idea that the press is no longer "viable" is bunk. It's merely been nerfed, and like other sets such as Triangle or Zone, will require a more tailored approach than the standard complaint about recruiting a track team.

Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 5/31/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By rockafe11a on 5/31/2010

This might be the dumbest 3 sentences ever strung together on these boards...and that's saying something.

You agree that its a bad change to make IQ and stamina actually matter??? You agree that its a bad change to actually make someone make a freaking effort at coaching instead of just trotting out a roster of snot-nosed fat kids fresh out of high school and expecting a win???

Seriously? This has gone from merely ridiculous to completely asinine.

Wow. Seriously? People never cease to amaze me.

#1 - What I said was a true statement. Like it or not. This really isn't even arguable. Do you understand the basic idea that you have to consistently make good runs in the NT to keep an A+ when the baseline is C- at the D3 level? If not, we can't continue this conversation cause thats a bit asinine.

#2 - I believe stamina and IQ should absolutely matter. Never said anything even remotely close to that. They didn't matter enough under the old engine. These are steps in the right direction. Don't be ridiculous.

#3 - I was merely acknowledging the fact that the press is now more realistic. No one actually runs a press the entire game in college basketball. The "glitch" has been fixed. At the same time those that have implemented it for many seasons now find themselves losing to less talented teams. Oh well, who gives a damn. Time to suck it up and switch to M2M. Adapt and overcome.

rock, #3 is totally off base.

If they are going to offer press as a base defense, they need to make it viable. Not stronger than everything else, not a mutant defense -- but viable just like m2m or zone. Period.

As a press coach myself, i agree. However, it just doesn't seem to work as well as man or zone now. It seems to function more like the fastbreak does, in that it is wildly inconsistent unless you have great IQs. Whereas with zone you can still get decent results with average IQs. Because of this a coach may have 2 good seasons and then 2 not so good ones, due to the time it takes to get the IQs capable of running a quality press. I may be way off but that is just my opinion with the small sample size i've had so far.

Well, OK, that's totally different than what you said in #3. What you said in #3 was that the press glitch had been "fixed", no one runs it in college hoops and time to suck it up and switch to m2m. That's crazy. What you said directly above makes more sense. Not saying I 100% agree or disagree, but at least I follow you.

Quote: Originally Posted By udm_mike on 5/31/2010Who are you? Have you bothered to look at the recent teams I got blown out by? They're not exactly better. Seriously, you can't come in here and question me with your "resume" if you haven't even bothered to look at the games in question.

I would like to know how you can type with while simultaneously giving a handy to vd. That's some nice multi-tasking

Who am I? I'm a guy that actually recognizes that your team is on the far side of mediocre and that the only reason you got that A+ prestige that rockafella is bragging you up on is because you were running a defense that was a loophole.

That you don't even begin to understand how bad your team is relative to the teams you're playing and the style you're playing is mindnumbing and totally proves my point.

Let's walk through your games one-by-one for the first 4 until you went to a combo defense and completely destroyed any hope you had a winning this year. You tell me which of these you should've won. Or hell, even where the other team "isn't exactly better". Since I can't go back in time and figure out exactly what you're ratings were for a given game I'm going to use the ratings today.

Game 1 - you lose to Cabrini on the road, 65-53. Your on-court average skill: 333. His on-court average skill (corrected for the walk-on) 322. Call it even with the homecourt. Your average stamina based on mins played: 73 His average stamina based on mins played: 80 Your avg def IQ based on mins played: B His average def IQ based on mins played: B/B+ Your offensive IQ based on mins played: B-/B His offensive IQ based on mins played: B/B+

Your team is slightly better on-court but you're: 1) on the road, 2) give up almost a 10% stamina advantage, 3) have an IQ disadvantage on defense, 4) have an IQ disadvantage on offense. Frankly, you're lucky you kept it this close.

Game 2 - You win vs Ferrum. Yay you!

Game 3 - You lose by 3 at home to Gallaudet. Your oncourt skill: 333. His on-court skill: 346. Again, call it even with your homecourt advantage. Your average stamina based on mins played: 73 His average stamina based on mins played: 81 Your avg def IQ based on mins played: B-/B His average def IQ based on mins played: B+ Your offensive IQ based on mins played: B-/B His offensive IQ based on mins played: B/B+

This is going to sound like a broken record here real soon but...you were at home but: 1) you had an oncourt skill disadvantage, 2) you had more than a 10% stamina deficit, 3) your defensive IQ was worse, 4 your offensive IQ was worse. Frankly, you're lucky you kept it this close.

Game 4 - You got beat at home by Vassar 137-48. Your oncourt skill: 333. His on-court skill: 325. So you've got a decent advantage based on both the homecourt and the on-court. Your average stamina based on mins played: 72 His average stamina based on mins played: 84 Your avg def IQ based on mins played: B-/B His average def IQ based on mins played: B+ Your offensive IQ based on mins played: B- His offensive IQ based on mins played: B.

You were at home and had a slight on-court advantage but: 1) you had almost a 20% stamina deficit, 2) your defensive IQ was worse, 3) your offensive IQ was worse. You can argue margin of victory here but the stamina advantage killed you and you had 7 guys foul out. Basically his guys were fresher all game long and the fouls built up.

Manchester had an on-court advantage...a stamina advantage...it goes on and on and on. The teams you played even after this were all either roughly the same as you talentwise or better. Your stamina is terrible and your IQs are mediocre as well.

This team shouldn't be winning these games. It isn't a "nerfed press" thing. And if these were the type of game you expected to win in the past...I think this is a perfect case example of what was wrong with the press.

Quote: Originally Posted By rockafe11a on 5/31/2010
As a press coach myself, i agree. However, it just doesn't seem to work as well as man or zone now. It seems to function more like the fastbreak does, in that it is wildly inconsistent unless you have great IQs. Whereas with zone you can still get decent results with average IQs. Because of this a coach may have 2 good seasons and then 2 not so good ones, due to the time it takes to get the IQs capable of running a quality press. I may be way off but that is just my opinion with the small sample size i've had so far.

You don't need great IQs to play the press. You need decent IQs. What you need is exactly what a team running even a mythical FCP for 40 minutes would need: stamina. udm_mike's team has below average IQ and he'd probably be ok with that overall if his stamina wasn't literally 10-20% below everyone else he's playing. Bottom line, his on-court talent level is roughly the same but he's worse in: offensive IQ, defensive IQ, and stamina. There's no justification for him winning anything.

I wasn't kidding with the fat kid thing. Seriously. He's trying to press teams that are fitter than his team. Just ignore for a second that we're playing HD and tell me if you think that would be a good decision in the real world.

Earlier you said that the change was too drastic for those that use the press. Be honest with me here for a second...do you think its reasonable for a team like udm_mike's which is worse to lots worse than every team he's played and lost to, to continue to win games just so the change can be a little less drastic? You can't really believe that, can you?

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Additionally, in that one blowout, he was compounding the stamina problems by running an uptempo offense.

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4 players fouling out in a game, i originally started to write something up about it but i decided I would let people look at the game first. I know I was not a dominate team in this game, but I was by no means dominated by them either.

BTW this is D3, I was ranked #8 he was #3 for what it is worth. Just showing you that the team is not a knock over.

4 Players foul out

Also, I am not saying I should have won by any stretch as I feel it was a fair game for sure. I am just wondering about the amount of fouls being committed.

The big difference here is that you went uptempo with an FCP and he went normal tempo with a combo D. Your stamina is actually better than his overall.

I realize up front that this analysis isn't perfect because we're seeing snapshots in time at the media timeouts. But its the best we can do and I think we can see a pattern between the fatigue shown at the timeouts and the fouls you're committing: the farther down the scale toward "very tired" your team was, the more fouls they committed.

Start to 16 min timeout: Your team was "fresh" you committed 2 fouls

16-12: Your team was between fresh and fairly fresh - you committed 2 fouls

12-8: Your team was just short of "tiring" - you commited 3 fouls

8-4: Your team was between "tiring" and "tired" - you commited 5 fouls

4-0: Your team was just short of "tiring" - you committed 3 fouls

What are your sub settings? You played a 4-guard rotation at the two guard positions and they have very strong stamina (97, 96, 82, 81) but they spent an awful lot of the game either tired or very tired.

I see Tucker played virtually the entire first half - he's a great example of what I think is going on. He starts the game and plays until the 11:45 timeout when we see he's slipped to "tired". He stays in though and commits his first foul at the 8:22 mark. The next time we see his fatigue is the 7:36 timeout and he's "very tired". So his first foul came at either tired or very tired. He commits his second foul at 5:31 when he's still "very tired". He subs out at 5:31 and when he comes back in at 3:57 he's immediately back to "very tired" at the 3:36 timeout. He stays in the rest of the half and commits his third foul at the :41 second mark. Basically he played 18 of 20 minutes in the first half, and only committed fouls when he was either at the far end of "tired" or full-on "very tired".

In the 2nd half he commits one foul early when he's either "fresh" or "fairly fresh" and then plays the rest of the half, getting progressively more tired until he fouls out at the 1:31 mark when he's either "tired" or "very tired".

In the first half Tucker's average fatigue level at the media timeouts was just past "tired", Steele's was "fairly fresh", and Miller's was "tiring".

In the second half Tucker's average was almost to "tiring", Butler's was between "tiring" and "tired" and Steele's was "fresh"

If you go to normal or even slow-down you should do a lot better overall.

Tired players = fouls.

This happens a TON in real life, and makes sense to happen in the game.

Kentucky and Arkansas both ran Full Court Presses as the Main Defense for many years in Real Life.

While it does take certain types of Atheletes and a Deeper Bench to do this, it is perfectly realistic to have the Press as your Base Defense, and then fall back on Zones or even Man when you have built that big lead.

You just need the right players in place to do it.

A lot of High School Teams run the Press all game. Why? They have the kids (compared to the kids at the other schools) to do it. JUCO and Div-III are very comparable to Top High School Basketball (the Top High Schools may even be better, as they send up D-I or NBA Talent... those JUCO and D-IIIs are there for a reason).

While running a Press for D-I should take a ton of Recruiting Effort to land the right guys, it should be fairly common at the Lower Levels (like the Option in College Football, only a few D-I's run it with any success, but at lower Levels where Defenses aren't that good it can run wild).

You don't have the same Quality of Ball Handlers and Passers in D-III, so building a good Press Team (ATH, SPD, DEF, BLK, REB) should have your guys shutting down other teams. It does in Real Life.

Quote: Originally posted by brrexkl on 6/01/2010  Kentucky and Arkansas both ran Full Court Presses as the Main Defense for many years in Real Life.  While it does take certain types of Atheletes and a Deeper Bench to do this, it is perfectly realistic to have the Press as your Base Defense, and then fall back on Zones or even Man when you have built that big lead.  You just need the right players in place to do it.  A lot of High School Teams run the Press all game.  Why?  They have the kids (compared to the kids at the other schools) to do it.  JUCO and Div-III are very comparable to Top High School Basketball (the Top High Schools may even be better, as they send up D-I or NBA Talent... those JUCO and D-IIIs are there for a reason).  While running a Press for D-I should take a ton of Recruiting Effort to land the right guys, it should be fairly common at the Lower Levels (like the Option in College Football, only a few D-I's run it with any success, but at lower Levels where Defenses aren't that good it can run wild).  You don't have the same Quality of Ball Handlers and Passers in D-III, so building a good Press Team (ATH, SPD, DEF, BLK, REB) should have your guys shutting down other teams.  It does in Real Life.

Kentucky did not press every play all game long. They did press some plays. Arkansas did do it almost every play. The HD FCP is pressing every play. Can it be done with the right team, sure.

Do many teams do it in real life, no. If it was affective and if most teams could run it with their athletes then at least some would do it in real life. If something has been done by 2-4 teams over a 30 year period of time, it likely should not be an option where 40% of the teams run it and win with it.