Posted by swamphawk22 on 8/31/2010 2:31:00 AM (view original):
The reason they have to explain it is we pay to play this game. Warcraft gives vivid details of everything. I can tell you what 30 resilience adds to my stats. Can you tell me what 30 ATH adds to your player?

The fact is that WIS, out of any game companies, gives the least information about how things work. By Far. We have no idea what does what, except that after playing a ton you might pick up some subtle trends. And then they change the game.

from a fellow hawk that is HD described perfectly

Generally speaking, when you find yourself agreeing with swamphawk, it's time to re-evaluate your position.

WoW Character Attributes:

Strength (STR)
	Increases your Attack Power with melee weapons. Increases the amount of damage you can block with a shield.
Agility (AGI)
	Increases your Attack Power with ranged weapons. Increases your Armor. Increases your chance to score a critical hit with a weapon. Increases your chance to dodge attacks. Increases your Attack Power with melee weapons (rogue, hunter, and druids in cat form only).
Stamina (STA)
	Increases Health. Increases your pet's Stamina.
Intellect (INT)
	Increases Mana. Increases your chance to score a critical hit with spells. Increase your pet's Intellect.
Spirit (SPR)
	Increases Health regeneration rates out of combat and Mana regeneration rates when not casting spells.

Please explain to me how that's any more detailed than the Rating descriptions we get in HD:

• Athleticism (ath): refers to physical skills/strength. In HD, athleticism is used on both sides of the ball. On offense, it plays a role in rebounding, positioning inside and how players finish around the basket. On defense, it plays a role in defensive positioning (especially inside), rebounding and shot blocking.
• Speed (spd): refers to a player's quickness. Like athleticism, speed is important on both sides of the ball and the importance of which varies by position on the court, e.g. it's much more important for guards to be quick than for post players. On offense, speed is important for perimeter players to effectively be able to get to the basket. On defense, quickness is vital for overall defense, especially against guards and forwards but can benefit big men by giving them the ability to cause turnovers and it helps with shot blocking.
• Rebounding (reb): refers to a player's rebounding fundamentals and his desire to rebound. Very few ratings stand alone - rebounding is an example of that - I may have a high rebounding rating which may make me a good rebounder but if I'm not also a good athlete, I'll never be a great rebounder.
• Defense (def): like rebounding, defense refers to a player's defensive fundamentals and their desire to play defense. Again, knowledge of the fundamentals and having the desire are great, but you also need the athleticism and speed to be a great defender.
• Shot Block (blk): refers to a player's understanding of timing and positioning when blocking shots.
• Low Post (lp): refers to a player's ability to score inside the paint.
• Perimeter (pe): refers to a player's outside shooting ability. Applies to all positions on the floor with this skill carrying more weight for perimeter players (PG, SG, SF) but also plays a role for post players. The ability to score both inside and outside makes any player more difficult to stop. For example, I'd prefer a PF with 80 low post and 30 perimeter over a PF with 93 low post and 2 perimeter.
• Passing (p): refers to a player's ability to know when and where to deliver the ball to their teammates. Applies to all positions on the floor but carries more weight as you move away from the basket.
• Ballhandling (bh): refers to a player's ability take care of the ball. Like passing, applies to all positions on the floor but carries more weight as you move away from the basket. Ballhandling is important for players you want to be "slashers".
• Work Ethic (we): work ethic impacts how hard a player works to improve.
• Stamina (st): stamina refers to a player's endurance. The higher his stamina, the longer he can player without diminished skills.
• Durability (du): refers to how a player deals with injuries - the higher a player's durability, the less likely they are to sustain a severe injury and when they do get injured, how quickly they'll be able to return.

Your example doesnt cover the depth of information that Blizzard gives to people...comare this chat for the upcoming Cataclysm update with anything you have ever got from WIS...
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=26137024331&sid=1

Posted by antonsirius on 8/31/2010 10:20:00 AM (view original):
Generally speaking, when you find yourself agreeing with swamphawk, it's time to re-evaluate your position.

WoW Character Attributes:

Strength (STR)
	Increases your Attack Power with melee weapons. Increases the amount of damage you can block with a shield.
Agility (AGI)
	Increases your Attack Power with ranged weapons. Increases your Armor. Increases your chance to score a critical hit with a weapon. Increases your chance to dodge attacks. Increases your Attack Power with melee weapons (rogue, hunter, and druids in cat form only).
Stamina (STA)
	Increases Health. Increases your pet's Stamina.
Intellect (INT)
	Increases Mana. Increases your chance to score a critical hit with spells. Increase your pet's Intellect.
Spirit (SPR)
	Increases Health regeneration rates out of combat and Mana regeneration rates when not casting spells.

Please explain to me how that's any more detailed than the Rating descriptions we get in HD:

• Athleticism (ath): refers to physical skills/strength. In HD, athleticism is used on both sides of the ball. On offense, it plays a role in rebounding, positioning inside and how players finish around the basket. On defense, it plays a role in defensive positioning (especially inside), rebounding and shot blocking.
• Speed (spd): refers to a player's quickness. Like athleticism, speed is important on both sides of the ball and the importance of which varies by position on the court, e.g. it's much more important for guards to be quick than for post players. On offense, speed is important for perimeter players to effectively be able to get to the basket. On defense, quickness is vital for overall defense, especially against guards and forwards but can benefit big men by giving them the ability to cause turnovers and it helps with shot blocking.
• Rebounding (reb): refers to a player's rebounding fundamentals and his desire to rebound. Very few ratings stand alone - rebounding is an example of that - I may have a high rebounding rating which may make me a good rebounder but if I'm not also a good athlete, I'll never be a great rebounder.
• Defense (def): like rebounding, defense refers to a player's defensive fundamentals and their desire to play defense. Again, knowledge of the fundamentals and having the desire are great, but you also need the athleticism and speed to be a great defender.
• Shot Block (blk): refers to a player's understanding of timing and positioning when blocking shots.
• Low Post (lp): refers to a player's ability to score inside the paint.
• Perimeter (pe): refers to a player's outside shooting ability. Applies to all positions on the floor with this skill carrying more weight for perimeter players (PG, SG, SF) but also plays a role for post players. The ability to score both inside and outside makes any player more difficult to stop. For example, I'd prefer a PF with 80 low post and 30 perimeter over a PF with 93 low post and 2 perimeter.
• Passing (p): refers to a player's ability to know when and where to deliver the ball to their teammates. Applies to all positions on the floor but carries more weight as you move away from the basket.
• Ballhandling (bh): refers to a player's ability take care of the ball. Like passing, applies to all positions on the floor but carries more weight as you move away from the basket. Ballhandling is important for players you want to be "slashers".
• Work Ethic (we): work ethic impacts how hard a player works to improve.
• Stamina (st): stamina refers to a player's endurance. The higher his stamina, the longer he can player without diminished skills.
• Durability (du): refers to how a player deals with injuries - the higher a player's durability, the less likely they are to sustain a severe injury and when they do get injured, how quickly they'll be able to return.

anton - this is a summary you are posting. i haven't played this game for 5 years, but when i did, it was available what *exactly* what each stat did. for example, under intellect, you have

	Increases Mana. Increases your chance to score a critical hit with spells. Increase your pet's Intellect.

i was a mage, so no pet, but i knew 1 point of intellect was X points of mana (can't remember now but was very aware of it then) and also the % increase of critical hit, exactly. so while the summary you give is not much different than what we have from WIS, there was also a ton more information available and it was very specific.

That's probably true. I've never played any MMO for more than about 10 minutes, so I have no idea how detailed they get on that stuff - or whether that level of detail is available directly from Blizzard, or from user forums.

They're very different games though. MMOs need that level of detail because power batteries and such are directly accessible by the players and tracked in real time. Plus, being an RPG, it's a direct descendant of pencil and paper RPGs, where you had to have that kind of information on your character to make the game workable.

The numbers you're suggesting we should have don't even really make sense in the context of HD. If we were told that each point of ATH meant a 0.15% increase in your rebounding ability, that number still wouldn't mean much since we a) aren't observing each individual rebound in isolation, and b) our players are competing for that rebound against multiple opponents and teammates. In WoW, you have a personal mana pool and know how every point of it gets spent, so of course you need to know exactly how each point of Intellect affects that pool. There's absolutely nothing in HD comparable to that.

Comparing HD to an MMORPG makes about as much sense as comparing it to online poker. About the only thing they have in common is that they are games played over the internet.

First impressions...too small a sample size, of course, but...well, just take it for what it's worth. Probably nothing...

1st game in Tark, we're 69 point favorites (maybe they need to look into the point spreads again...) and manage to pull out a win in Overtime!
 (Sadly, we didn't cover)

Thru the Second round in the NT on Knight...
Midwest--- 2 loses to 10, 3 to 6, 4 and 5 to 12
East--- 1 to 9
South--- 3 to 6, 4 to 5
West--- 3 to 14

11 of the top 25, and all the ACC and Big East teams are out...


oh and as for WoW....http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Khaz+Modan&cn=Jehn  yes I play too much, and yes Blizzard releases patch notes with every change, no matter how minor, because the few times they made any "ninja" changes, it was like Frankenstein's Monster being chased by millions of peasants with torches...

Next we will be debating whether my 10th level Paladin can effectively keep your PG out of the lane.

if in Knight 11 of the top 25 are out after two rounds wouldn't that mean 14 of the final 16 teams that made the third round were top 25?    If true, that's not bad.
Also 10 of the top 12 pre-tourney ranked teams making it through to the round of 16.  I've never held much weight in the rankings but 10 of the top 12 advancing is quite impressive.

winners:   1-Arkansas,  2-Kansas,  3-USC,  4-Michigan St,  6-Memphis,  7-Texas A&M,  9-Mississippi St,  10-Kentucky,  11-Dartmouth,  12-Texas
losers:   5- Seton Hall,  8-North Carolina
#8 UNC lost to #12 Texas and #5 Seton Hall lost in OT to an unranked LSU team that had a higher overall team rating 

In RL only 8 of the top 12 advanced to the Sweet Sixteen last year.

Posted by antonsirius on 8/31/2010 7:11:00 PM (view original):
That's probably true. I've never played any MMO for more than about 10 minutes, so I have no idea how detailed they get on that stuff - or whether that level of detail is available directly from Blizzard, or from user forums.

They're very different games though. MMOs need that level of detail because power batteries and such are directly accessible by the players and tracked in real time. Plus, being an RPG, it's a direct descendant of pencil and paper RPGs, where you had to have that kind of information on your character to make the game workable.

The numbers you're suggesting we should have don't even really make sense in the context of HD. If we were told that each point of ATH meant a 0.15% increase in your rebounding ability, that number still wouldn't mean much since we a) aren't observing each individual rebound in isolation, and b) our players are competing for that rebound against multiple opponents and teammates. In WoW, you have a personal mana pool and know how every point of it gets spent, so of course you need to know exactly how each point of Intellect affects that pool. There's absolutely nothing in HD comparable to that.

Comparing HD to an MMORPG makes about as much sense as comparing it to online poker. About the only thing they have in common is that they are games played over the internet.

you are right - it makes no sense to compare HD to an MMO. i sort of pointed that out earlier, i know you aren't the guy who first brought up the MMO example, but the only reason i referenced it at all is because you guys did, in direct response to what you guys were saying - all of which were terrible points, which was largely because you guys were comparing HD to an MMO =)


anyway, i am not suggesting we should get those numbers. i dont think we should be told any of the formulas like that - for example, the formula for how a shooting guard makes a 3 pointer or not. it would pretty much ruin the game, IMO. however, i do think we deserve to understand when this game is being changed, how it is being changed. not the formulas, not exactly what the repercussions are, but a good high level explanation of what the change was. for this change, i think we got it. i have no complaints on that at all.

Oh, sorry - didn't notice it wasn't jayhawk responding.

Posted by grecianfox on 8/31/2010 8:01:00 PM (view original):
Next we will be debating whether my 10th level Paladin can effectively keep your PG out of the lane.

Just for the record..... he can't
I usually run a Gnome Rogue at the point and between the stealth and the speed burst he has.... U got no chance.

A team of gnomes would have as good a chance as any of winning at non-Elite D1 :p

LOL i just read the first page of this thread and the release notes-- they're actually making it "un"- random. 

this is like years back the ipod shuffle had to change their shuffle feature because when ppl got the same song a few songs after they had just heard it, they got ****** and claimed it was "not random."

so we're catering to the ******* retarded people who cannot understand variance.

are you sure you want to go down this road? why even sim the games? why not just let the best team win, then i'd have a few more banners hung anyways.

I've been wondering, how do these changes interact with the halftime adjustments - a team misses their three point attempts in the first half, therefore the automatic adjustment by the other team (if activated) moves them to a minus setting on defense - and THEN the adjusted randomness makes the opponents into better three point shooters.....?

am I missing something?

is this too small to matter?