Reward Points Reductions Topic

dalter
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So because Super Mario Brothers is designed so that you have to move up to the next level, that automatically means WIS is, too? That analogy is just meaningless.

Fregoe, I am trying hard to remember a time that you didn't side with WIS on something.
2/12/2010 10:43 AM
dalter
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Quote: Originally Posted By doomey on 2/12/2010

dalter, I'm not saying it to be negative to other coaches, I'm saying it for two reasons. One is because it isn't the same game at the lower levels for a multitude of reasons and the higher level of competition and complexity should be rewarded

Again, if they want to penalize coaches who build dynasties at DII/DIII, that's up to WIS. No need for you to lobby for it. Because you may not intend to be negative towards those coaches, but the reality is that you are.

and two, because I believe it would benefit the health of the game to have motivation for upward movement.

The health of the game? That's *** backwards. The slashing of rewards points proved to be terrible for the health of the game, as scores of long-time DII/DIII programs were dropped, the worlds became less populated and less interesting, and thus unable to retain new coaches who had no guidance in a game that sorely needs it.

The slashing of rewards points has been terrible for the health of the game. This was a grave miscalculation that WIS made ... at this point, it's akin to championing the Titanic or the Hindenburg. Didn't work.

It's nice to have those dynasties, but the mere fact that they exist can turn off new players as much as any other factor. Seeing a certain set of coaches entrenched at the upper echelons of D3 can be as intimidating as it can be helpful. I'm not saying those dynasties shouldn't exist, I'm just saying rewarding them equally for not moving up to the next level seems counter to what is built as a progressionary game (even if it isn't stated, it is implicit by how the game was built).

The game was built to model real life, where there are different divisions. As others have said, it is Hoops Dynasty, not DI Hoops Dynasty. There is absolutely nothing implicit in having to move up.

Doomey, what WIS (and now you) wildly underestimated was the overall detrimental effect that not having a strong, established veteran presence at the lower levels would have. This is not an easy game to be successful at when you first start, and having that veteran presence to help guide new coaches is absolutely invaluable for the retention of new coaches and the overall health at the lower levels of HD.
2/12/2010 10:49 AM
Fregoe
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Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 2/12/2010
So because Super Mario Brothers is designed so that you have to move up to the next level, that automatically means WIS is, too? That analogy is just meaningless.

Fregoe, I am trying hard to remember a time that you didn't side with WIS on something.

I am not sideing with anyone but my own opinion here. I think this game has levels and if you think its designed for people to stay at DIII I find that interesting. just MY opinion. If it wasnt designed to have coaches move up there would not be an application process with qualifications to advance. I still have a DIII team that I will have until I either die, WIS goes under, or I go bankrupt and dont have enough free seasons saved up to play anymore. Reading this thread has been very entertaining because eveyone KNOWS what should be done when in reality it all just opinions. I was in favor of the new worlds a few years ago and now realize that they are probably the main reason that there is so many vacancies. restoring reward points in my opinion will only create the same issues that were there when they reduced them. FYI they dont reduce your first few rewards.. just ongoing rewads that are earned at a lower level. This makes sense to me. Just my opinion though. I also would like to point out that I have been in disagreement with many WIS policies and changes. I just dont go running to the forums every time I have an issue.
2/12/2010 11:06 AM
dalter
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In Super Mario, you are required to move up. You finish one level, you automatically go the next, no questions asked. In HD, you have the option of staying at DIII or continuing to move to a different division. It's simply not analogous.

And there weren't really any major issues surrounding rewards points when they existed in full. (And it's become crystal clear in the ensuing 3+ years that any small issues surrounding them were heavily outweighed by the positives of having coaches around and keeping the lower levels healthy.)

Seble has recently revealed to us that the main issue was the cost of non-WIS gift certificates, so a clear response to that would be to cut out the GC's and just offer WIS seasons.
2/12/2010 11:15 AM
dalter
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Here's a good recent example: I had a new conference mate who was very frustrated, felt like he couldn't compete, didn't really have the hang of recruiting and was ready to throw in the towel.

Myself and one or two other veteran coaches in the conference talked him through it, helping him via CC and sitemail. He went out and got a really nice 5-man class in recruiting, and has now done such a 180 that he is actually working to set up a conference challenge for everyone.

I can't tell you how many conference mates I've helped over the years, some with just one off questions, others literally teaching them HD from the ground up. And I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, I know there are plenty of other vet coaches who do the same. But if they're not present at the lower levels, that guidance never exists and new coaches don't last through the night.
2/12/2010 11:39 AM
zhawks
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Quote: Originally posted by dalter on 2/12/2010I can't tell you how many conference mates I've helped over the years, some with just one off questions, others literally teaching them HD from the ground up. And I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, I know there are plenty of other vet coaches who do the same. But if they're not present at the lower levels, that guidance never exists and new coaches don't last through the night.

Couldn't agree with you more there dalt. I know we have talked about a mentoring program, many a time, basically making official and more available what so many coaches already do.
2/12/2010 1:46 PM
doomey
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dalter, who is lobbying, I'm expressing an opinion, just like you. I'm merely offering my assessment of the HD stituation based upon what I see. D1 inherantly has more challenges and is the highest level of the game, so I see no problem with it getting more in rewards. Simple as that. You say it's a penalty, I say it is a justified tiering based upon the challenges.

As for this repeated statement that it was bad for the game. First off, we should all be helpful to the new people, it only helps the game and that should be it's own reward. I'd like to think that I too have helped new players or players new to their division, so I don't think that is the sole perview of the D3 vets.

Since it keeps being brought up, you have absolutely nothing to back-up the statement that loosing some vets at D3 has had any more or less impact than any other factor in the populations of D3. You have conjecture. Did we lose some vets who couldn't play cheaply anymore or in protest, or have people trim down the number of accounts? Yes. Did that have any financial impact on WIS? Probably not. Can you say vets have helped new people. Yes. Do you have any numbers on how many quit because they weren't helped? No, because you have no way of knowing that untll and unless we have the hard numbers.

Finally, in correllation, I do not feel that D3 coaches should be incentvized through rewards to stick around under the idea that they must be retained to teach people. I don't agree with the general premise. You just cited a case where you and other vets helped a person, so it is still happening, isn't it? It really is a bit of a straw man, since there are many vets still in D3 helping, Yes a few key names or pared down, but the advice is still there. If it isn't, it could be bcause the vets tend to cluster and poeple fall through the cracks in ghost conferences.

2/12/2010 3:09 PM
doomey
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Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 2/12/2010
Quote: Originally posted by dalter on 2/12/2010
I can't tell you how many conference mates I've helped over the years, some with just one off questions, others literally teaching them HD from the ground up. And I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, I know there are plenty of other vet coaches who do the same. But if they're not present at the lower levels, that guidance never exists and new coaches don't last through the night.

Couldn't agree with you more there dalt. I know we have talked about a mentoring program, many a time, basically making official and more available what so many coaches already do
Also a great idea, or newb monitor or two for each world. I'm very down with that,
2/12/2010 3:10 PM
car_crazy_v2
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Seble wonders why DIII is empty, but he still reduces reward points.
2/12/2010 4:05 PM
doomey
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D3 is emptier as much because of lack of game promotion as anything discussed here. It isn't a deterrant to new coaches, since they get full rewards intitially. Returning to freeHD with the removal of FSS as suggested would help increase the population. There just simply aren't as many new poeple showing up to play period as compared to 2-3 years ago.
2/12/2010 4:47 PM
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