"Platoons are almost impossible, unconventional rotations are almost impossible (might actually be impossible even if not trying to be competitive), building a team that prioritizes maximum value is almost impossible, and combinations of those things are likely entirely impossible. There's going to be wasted salary on excess PA or IP, you're going to be carrying a 3 or 4 man rotation of 200-400 IP pitchers"

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but these points are simply not true, if you put in the effort to examine a lot of combination possibilities.

I built a roster with ~5400 PA and ~1,500 IP. I have no mopup innings, and only two scrub hitters, for a total wasted salary of ~$500K. I also have 3 positions that will be manned by 2-3 players each.

Posted by doctorcc on 5/21/2024 1:54:00 PM (view original):

Do people think a larger theme committee should be used next year? It might be harder to get consensus, but it would also get input from a variety of voices that might think differently in some key ways.

I guess two questions to ask would be

1. Would that help? Or would it be a case of too many cooks in the same kitchen?

2. Does all the discussion around the $100m theme necessarily mean it was badly done? It seems like people either love it or hate it, which is interesting (again it was my favorite of the 6 builds)

I personally think this would be a bad idea, as everyone wants a little something different. One possibility would be to have 2-3 themes at each cap level, and then a poll to vote on which ones we use in the tournament, with the majority ruling and people agreeing to accept the result.

But we still need 1-2 people in charge to make the final decision, or I see endless debating and tweaking of themes.

Posted by redcped on 5/21/2024 1:40:00 PM (view original):
I do appreciate all this feedback. I will say that when designing the themes, at least speaking for me personally, I did not actually attempt any team-building in that process. I didn't start a single team until after all the themes were posted and open to all because I feel I should operate under the same time constraint.

My sense with the notes on the 100M theme in particular is that you would have to start building teams to notice how some of those season/teammate choices were actually impacting the roster decisions. In this case, that was not part of my consideration in our theme discussions. I can see from your notes, however, that it could have been helpful.

Do people think a larger theme committee should be used next year? It might be harder to get consensus, but it would also get input from a variety of voices that might think differently in some key ways.

I don't think a larger committee helps overall, it's as doctorcc suggests, "too many cooks in the kitchen."

And you may absolutely be right that with the $100m, it isn't necessarily something easy to notice unless you start trying to build a roster. That said, I do find this issue is more common in box themes in general.

Posted by Jtpsops on 5/21/2024 1:59:00 PM (view original):
"Platoons are almost impossible, unconventional rotations are almost impossible (might actually be impossible even if not trying to be competitive), building a team that prioritizes maximum value is almost impossible, and combinations of those things are likely entirely impossible. There's going to be wasted salary on excess PA or IP, you're going to be carrying a 3 or 4 man rotation of 200-400 IP pitchers"

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but these points are simply not true, if you put in the effort to examine a lot of combination possibilities.

I built a roster with ~5400 PA and ~1,500 IP. I have no mopup innings, and only two scrub hitters, for a total wasted salary of ~$500K. I also have 3 positions that will be manned by 2-3 players each.

I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree... I'd never consider drafting that many IP at his cap. I'd think anything above 1,350 as excess. I wouldn't even consider going over 1400 IP unless cap was above $130m, and wouldn't consider touching 1500 IP unless cap was $180m+. So, I'm looking at this and seeing that as a waste of $3-5m out of $100m cap space, that's a tough blow to the overall roster construction in terms of cap usage with 3-5% going to what I see as excess.

What if there are seven people involved, six of them like a theme, and one person hates it? A committee would only work with a long series of bylaws for how to handle a dispute, and how would you put that together?

No matter what you do, some people will hate the themes. I think if anyone wants to volunteer to help out, they should be welcome, but the final decisions need to be made by one person or it's a disaster waiting to happen.

Posted by 06gsp on 5/21/2024 2:16:00 PM (view original):
What if there are seven people involved, six of them like a theme, and one person hates it? A committee would only work with a long series of bylaws for how to handle a dispute, and how would you put that together?

No matter what you do, some people will hate the themes. I think if anyone wants to volunteer to help out, they should be welcome, but the final decisions need to be made by one person or it's a disaster waiting to happen.

Fully agree. A very wise boss I had years ago made this statement about Ideation and Execution.
"Ideation is a Democracy, Execution is a Dictatorship"

Maybe someone creates a permanent Thread here (I dont know how to do it) with a very defined template. What is your theme idea, what are the details, why it would be a challenge. We dont need everyone who has a different opinion to weigh in on why it works/doesnt.

Then whoever the brave soul is who has to run the WIS Tourney gets to review and decide.

Posted by just4me on 5/21/2024 2:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 5/21/2024 1:59:00 PM (view original):
"Platoons are almost impossible, unconventional rotations are almost impossible (might actually be impossible even if not trying to be competitive), building a team that prioritizes maximum value is almost impossible, and combinations of those things are likely entirely impossible. There's going to be wasted salary on excess PA or IP, you're going to be carrying a 3 or 4 man rotation of 200-400 IP pitchers"

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but these points are simply not true, if you put in the effort to examine a lot of combination possibilities.

I built a roster with ~5400 PA and ~1,500 IP. I have no mopup innings, and only two scrub hitters, for a total wasted salary of ~$500K. I also have 3 positions that will be manned by 2-3 players each.

I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree... I'd never consider drafting that many IP at his cap. I'd think anything above 1,350 as excess. I wouldn't even consider going over 1400 IP unless cap was above $130m, and wouldn't consider touching 1500 IP unless cap was $180m+. So, I'm looking at this and seeing that as a waste of $3-5m out of $100m cap space, that's a tough blow to the overall roster construction in terms of cap usage with 3-5% going to what I see as excess.

Perhaps under ordinary circumstances. But I find I often go over my projected IP count in WIS championship themes. A lot of good owners competing.

Posted by 06gsp on 5/21/2024 2:16:00 PM (view original):
What if there are seven people involved, six of them like a theme, and one person hates it? A committee would only work with a long series of bylaws for how to handle a dispute, and how would you put that together?

No matter what you do, some people will hate the themes. I think if anyone wants to volunteer to help out, they should be welcome, but the final decisions need to be made by one person or it's a disaster waiting to happen.

absolutely agree here...

I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree... I'd never consider drafting that many IP at his cap. I'd think anything above 1,350 as excess. I wouldn't even consider going over 1400 IP unless cap was above $130m, and wouldn't consider touching 1500 IP unless cap was $180m+. So, I'm looking at this and seeing that as a waste of $3-5m out of $100m cap space, that's a tough blow to the overall roster construction in terms of cap usage with 3-5% going to what I see as excess.

But I see that as a difference in strategy, not proof that the league requires you to waste salary.

I drafted 1363 innings, which includes one $200k mopup. The rest of my pitchers should be useful. I agree with jtpsops that there's no reason building the $100m roster without wasting salary is impossible.

Posted by ronthegenius on 5/16/2024 8:46:00 AM (view original):
And for those thinking about quitting or joining the waitlist - let me tell you that I've seen the themes for Round 2 this year - and they are amazing....

If the next themes are already locked down. Shouldnt we ALL have visibility to them? I dont even know if I will make the 2nd round but I think all should have the same amount of time to react.

Just my thoughts.

Posted by The_Creeper on 5/21/2024 2:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by 06gsp on 5/21/2024 2:16:00 PM (view original):
What if there are seven people involved, six of them like a theme, and one person hates it? A committee would only work with a long series of bylaws for how to handle a dispute, and how would you put that together?

No matter what you do, some people will hate the themes. I think if anyone wants to volunteer to help out, they should be welcome, but the final decisions need to be made by one person or it's a disaster waiting to happen.

Fully agree. A very wise boss I had years ago made this statement about Ideation and Execution.
"Ideation is a Democracy, Execution is a Dictatorship"

Maybe someone creates a permanent Thread here (I dont know how to do it) with a very defined template. What is your theme idea, what are the details, why it would be a challenge. We dont need everyone who has a different opinion to weigh in on why it works/doesnt.

Then whoever the brave soul is who has to run the WIS Tourney gets to review and decide.

We did look at all the theme ideas that were shared in the other thread, and at least one is on the R2 list if I'm not mistaken. There were some valuable ideas in there. But there's a lot to say in favor of having people explain why they think the theme is good for the WISC. We did that kind of analysis on our ideas to think them through for potential issues. I mean, the 140M theme in particular went through a lot of iterations before we landed where we did, and I think it led to a fun build with a ton of possible approaches.

One thing we definitely avoided were some of the theme types that feel more like word problems where you have to break out a calculator and if you don't solve the puzzle correctly you wind up at a disadvantage. That tends not to feel fun.

Posted by The_Creeper on 5/21/2024 2:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ronthegenius on 5/16/2024 8:46:00 AM (view original):
And for those thinking about quitting or joining the waitlist - let me tell you that I've seen the themes for Round 2 this year - and they are amazing....

If the next themes are already locked down. Shouldnt we ALL have visibility to them? I dont even know if I will make the 2nd round but I think all should have the same amount of time to react.

Just my thoughts.

I think we've usually posted them somewhere in the first half of Round 1, but I'm not locked into anything. Others can advise if there's a protocol.

We didn't totally finalize the wording yet, so once we are launched we can start doing the touchups needed to make them postable. We basically just agreed on what we think they'll be. But for instance there is always one draft, and we haven't figured out every detail for that one.

I think waiting until mid-round 1 to launch the R2 themes is appropriate. Same as in past years.

I don't need to see the themes. But I could use the cheat code for Round 2. There's gotta be a way to Game Genie my way in there.

Sorry to make it seem like Round 2 themes are set in stone and I’ve been working away already on a perfect roster. I was being a little facetious with that post and I apologize. The main ideas are there but lots of little details to nail down including the draft league.
But, for a preview, check out the following league redcped hosted previously this year and check out his comments about it feeling WISC-like and check out my comment at the bottom of page 2.
https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?topicID=540620&TopicsPage=0