Quote: Originally Posted By longtallbrad on 9/19/2009
Anyone who's already signed up for the league can raise an objection to a particular player in the sign-up thread. The owner who listed that player can then offer an explanation to see if it's satisfactory and meets the straight face test. That should take care of most if not all issues. If a disagreement persists, I can exercise the commissioner's prerogative and make a final judgment call. Good enough?

My vision is that players on the poison list should generally be players who were stars in real-life but rarely if ever get drafted in the current version of the sim. Either there's something obvious that prevents them from being a good fit on a competing team - terrible shooting percentages, horrible defense rating, high TOs/PFs, etc. - or they just seem plain unlucky.

That sounds good, I'm also good with the 37m cap

Okay, I'll start a sign-up thread in the next day or so. I know business is slow and there are other theme leagues trying to fill, so I expect this will take time. It would be great to make it work, though.

Just to see what people think of as poisonous. .Nate ARchibald? George MIkan?

Definitely Mikan. Probably Nate also, for his low D rating and because he's a high usage guard who doesn't supply a lot of 3s.

I know in the previous version of the sim some players who were widely considered poison were Karl Malone, Elgin Baylor and Elvin Hayes. Some of it seemed mysterious at the time - everyone just knew you couldn't build a championship team around any of them. Since the latest major sim patch the Mailman has become a favorite - in at least theme leagues with higher caps - because of his eFG% and because (for reasons that are beyond me) he plays 100% at SF. I think cases can be made for Elgin and Elvin as poison pills, though.

Just about anyone from the '50s qualifies (except for Bob Pettit). Also lots of ABA greats you virtually never see on WISNBA teams for one reason or another.

Throughout basketball history there are some obvious lemons - guys who played a ton of minutes, put up awful numbers and weren't considered good even back then. And there are plenty of players who were stars and even legends in their day but are basically never drafted because they don't fit into anyone's cookie cutter formula. I could give lots more examples, but don't want to influence anyone's thinking TOO much.

If you're gonna do a poison league why not make everyone have to draft and start 5 of the 24 selected poison players and make sure they are all 30-35+ MPG players? If everyone selects just 2 then you are bound to see Worm, Wilt, Russell, Peja etc etc as the other teammates right? LTB, I am just throwing out suggestions BTW, I am not trying to hijack or do anything negative here sorry if it came off as that way.

Quote: Originally Posted By earlmantis on 9/20/2009
If you're gonna do a poison league why not make everyone have to draft and start 5 of the 24 selected poison players and make sure they are all 30-35+ MPG players? If everyone selects just 2 then you are bound to see Worm, Wilt, Russell, Peja etc etc as the other teammates right? LTB, I am just throwing out suggestions BTW, I am not trying to hijack or do anything negative here sorry if it came off as that way.

Maybe but the 37m cap will limit those type of players

Quote: Originally Posted By longtallbrad on 9/20/2009I know in the previous version of the sim some players who were widely considered poison were Karl Malone, Elgin Baylor and Elvin Hayes. Some of it seemed mysterious at the time - everyone just knew you couldn't build a championship team around any of them.

I'm not sure why Karl Malone (or Bob McAdoo) was ever considered a poison player (I was challenged a long time ago to build a championship team around each of those players and was successful both times). Any high usage%, low eFG% with a ton of minutes would probably be a poison player.

Quote: Originally Posted By eleibowitz on 9/20/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By earlmantis on 9/20/2009

If you're gonna do a poison league why not make everyone have to draft and start 5 of the 24 selected poison players and make sure they are all 30-35+ MPG players? If everyone selects just 2 then you are bound to see Worm, Wilt, Russell, Peja etc etc as the other teammates right? LTB, I am just throwing out suggestions BTW, I am not trying to hijack or do anything negative here sorry if it came off as that way.

Maybe but the 37m cap will limit those type of player

2 Poison guys at $6-$7 mil a piece still leaves $22-$24 mil to draft 3 other starters. That leaves plenty of room for Worm and a Rice, BArros, Jesus, Peja etc etc. Again not arguing just throwing out ideas. Love the idea of a poison league LTB, let's make this thing work. I just think that if you want a totally fresh look at some new players and rosters 5 posion guys starting would really shake things up right?

A seven million in a 37 mil league is about equivilant to an 8 mil in a 42 mil league. Combining it with a minimum minutes level should help.

Also. .yes, you COULD pick up one or two of those. . and have no depth, and have to also have a good number of minutes [played by some pretty horrid players.

Here's an alternative suggestion that hopefully captures the spirit of the debate. I hear that some of you (and me as well) want to avoid a situation in which every owner can offset having one stinker with a bunch of reasonably priced sim stalwarts.

How about this:

- $37 mil cap
- No waiver wire or clones (I can go either way on rookies, but my guess is the majority will want to outlaw them
- Each owner submits 2 poison pill players - one with a salary range in the $5-7 mil range (this allow a lot of real woeful players with heavy minutes from earlier decades) and one with a minimum $7 mil salary
- 2900 minute minimum for all poison pills
- Each owner randomly receives 2 players - one from each salary (I'm fine with a draft, too, if owners are willing to invest the time)

Anyone have a strong objection to any part of that?

Quote: Originally posted by ncmusician_7 on 9/20/2009I'm not sure why Karl Malone (or Bob McAdoo) was ever considered a poison player (I was challenged a long time ago to build a championship team around each of those players and was successful both times).  Any high usage%, low eFG% with a ton of minutes would probably be a poison player.

Dunno, since I never used either of those guys in open leagues in the previous sim version. I still haven't used Malone, but I've at least gotten to the playoffs with three McAdoo teams, and never thought he was the reason I didn't get the championship round.

Quote: Originally Posted By longtallbrad on 9/21/2009Here's an alternative suggestion that hopefully captures the spirit of the debate. I hear that some of you (and me as well) want to avoid a situation in which every owner can offset having one stinker with a bunch of reasonably priced sim stalwarts.

How about this:

- $37 mil cap
- No waiver wire or clones (I can go either way on rookies, but my guess is the majority will want to outlaw them
- Each owner submits 2 poison pill players - one with a salary range in the $5-7 mil range (this allow a lot of real woeful players with heavy minutes from earlier decades) and one with a minimum $7 mil salary
- 2900 minute minimum for all poison pills
- Each owner randomly receives 2 players - one from each salary (I'm fine with a draft, too, if owners are willing to invest the time)

Anyone have a strong objection to any part of that?

That's sounds good to me and would like random assigment with these players

That sounds excellent.

Are there plenty of poisons at each price range at over 2900 minutes?

Quote: Originally Posted By a_in_the_b on 9/21/2009
That sounds excellent.

Are there plenty of poisons at each price range at over 2900 minutes?

I took a quick look and believe there are. If not we could drop the $5-7m range down to 2500-2700 mins.

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